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seanhowe: List of Marvel Characters, Ranked by Importance....

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Re: seanhowe: List of Marvel Characters, Ranked by Importanc

Postby Punchy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:07 am

Are we really applying our 'comics are SEXIST!' outrage retroactively to the 1960s?

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Re: seanhowe: List of Marvel Characters, Ranked by Importanc

Postby Victorian Squid » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:14 am

Did I say "sexist" in this thread once?

Or did I say he wrote female characters badly, hmm?

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Re: seanhowe: List of Marvel Characters, Ranked by Importanc

Postby Punchy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:34 am

Victorian Squid wrote:Did I say "sexist" in this thread once?

Or did I say he wrote female characters badly, hmm?


Semantics!

I know it's the done thing to hate on Stan Lee, but his characterisation of both men and women is far above almost any mainstream comics writer that came before him.

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Re: seanhowe: List of Marvel Characters, Ranked by Importanc

Postby Victorian Squid » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:21 pm

Punchy wrote:
Semantics!

I know it's the done thing to hate on Stan Lee, but his characterisation of both men and women is far above almost any mainstream comics writer that came before him.


Do you wanna cracker with that?

In the earlier years, before Stan wrote anything anyone gave two shits about, just making Lois Lane a working woman and ace reporter was ahead of its time.

Stan making super-powered women glorified housewives constantly being spoken to in patronizing terms (as shown in this thread, for example) and fashion designers worried about what to wear came later, and was not.

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Re: seanhowe: List of Marvel Characters, Ranked by Importanc

Postby Punchy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:29 pm

Victorian Squid wrote:
Do you wanna cracker with that?

In the earlier years, before Stan wrote anything anyone gave two shits about, just making Lois Lane a working woman and ace reporter was ahead of its time.

Stan making super-powered women glorified housewives constantly being spoken to in patronizing terms (as shown in this thread, for example) and fashion designers worried about what to wear came later, and was not.


Cracker? I don't get it.

Stan didn't just write women like Sue Storm (who toughened up from those early panels), there's also Mary-Jane Watson, who was a fun-loving, independent person.

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Re: seanhowe: List of Marvel Characters, Ranked by Importanc

Postby IvCNuB4 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:41 pm

Sue ranks as "Important" because she cooked, cleaned and got pregnant ? :lol:

What did Jan ever do "important" back then besides giggle, flirt and change outfits ? :wink:
Victorian Squid wrote:In a DC/Marvel cross-over "all your favorite Marvel characters would catch contextually-transmitted diseases and Steph infections."

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Re: seanhowe: List of Marvel Characters, Ranked by Importanc

Postby Schlemmer » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:18 pm

list is incomplete; need to know the status of Razorback

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Re: seanhowe: List of Marvel Characters, Ranked by Importanc

Postby Mr. Log » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:29 pm

Schlemmer wrote:list is incomplete; need to know the status of Razorback

Image


Nobody with four stars is on the list. That's a separate memo.

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Re: seanhowe: List of Marvel Characters, Ranked by Importanc

Postby IvCNuB4 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:31 pm

Would Jewish folks find that outfit insulting ... or closely aligned with their beliefs ? :smt017
Victorian Squid wrote:In a DC/Marvel cross-over "all your favorite Marvel characters would catch contextually-transmitted diseases and Steph infections."

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Re: seanhowe: List of Marvel Characters, Ranked by Importanc

Postby Victorian Squid » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:33 pm

IvCNuB4 wrote:Sue ranks as "Important" because she cooked, cleaned and got pregnant ? :lol:

What did Jan ever do "important" back then besides giggle, flirt and change outfits ? :wink:


She worried about Hank being mad at her and flirted with Thor IIRC.

That definitely trumps the much earlier ace reporter Lois Lane, or feminist icon Wonder Woman.

And, to the TWIP:

The way Lee changed superhero characterization was to insert all the "real-life" amateur drama stuff from the old romance comics into his superhero comics, not being forward-thinking about women's roles in society.

Which is why Venture Bros has Dr Impossible and Sally--it's not only a parody on what a dick Reed Richards was to Sue, or the idea of making your female lead vanish on command, it's a commentary on how women were written in comics at the time by Stan Lee (and others).

This was not his strong point. You can have your sacred cows, but you can't blow them and fuck them up the ass at the same time.

IVCNUB4 might have a different take on that..

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Re: seanhowe: List of Marvel Characters, Ranked by Importanc

Postby Punchy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:01 pm

Victorian Squid wrote:
She worried about Hank being mad at her and flirted with Thor IIRC.

That definitely trumps the much earlier ace reporter Lois Lane, or feminist icon Wonder Woman.

And, to the TWIP:

The way Lee changed superhero characterization was to insert all the "real-life" amateur drama stuff from the old romance comics into his superhero comics, not being forward-thinking about women's roles in society.

Which is why Venture Bros has Dr Impossible and Sally--it's not only a parody on what a dick Reed Richards was to Sue, or the idea of making your female lead vanish on command, it's a commentary on how women were written in comics at the time by Stan Lee (and others).

This was not his strong point. You can have your sacred cows, but you can't blow them and fuck them up the ass at the same time.

IVCNUB4 might have a different take on that..


I never said that Lee was some kind of feminist progressive, just that his depiction of women was no worse, and probably a bit better than, his contemporaries, which means I feel it's harsh to label him a 'farty old hack'.

The whole medium at that wrote women 'terribly badly', no need to single Lee out is basically what I'm saying.

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Re: seanhowe: List of Marvel Characters, Ranked by Importanc

Postby Victorian Squid » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:08 pm

Punchy wrote:
I never said that Lee was some kind of feminist progressive, just that his depiction of women was no worse, and probably a bit better than, his contemporaries, which means I feel it's harsh to label him a 'farty old hack'.

The whole medium at that wrote women 'terribly badly', no need to single Lee out is basically what I'm saying.



I get it, what you're trying to say is,

Punchy wrote:...his characterisation of both men and women is far above almost any mainstream comics writer that came before him.


isn't true, but rather in the case of his depiction of women,

Victorian Squid wrote:Mm, no they really weren't that different at all.


Gotcha. :wink:

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Re: seanhowe: List of Marvel Characters, Ranked by Importanc

Postby Punchy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:11 pm

Victorian Squid wrote:

I get it, what you're trying to say is,



isn't true, but rather in the case of his depiction of women,



Gotcha. :wink:


General characterisation is far above, depiction of women isn't.

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Re: seanhowe: List of Marvel Characters, Ranked by Importanc

Postby Victorian Squid » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:12 pm

Punchy wrote:
General characterisation is far above, depiction of women isn't.


Well okay then.

As someone who entered into this thread with no goal more lofty than to innocently demean a frail old man and his huge legacy to comics, I think I have acquitted myself quite well here.

And not once did I mention what decade his haircut dates to.

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Re: seanhowe: List of Marvel Characters, Ranked by Importanc

Postby IvCNuB4 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:55 pm

Victorian Squid wrote:This was not his strong point. You can have your sacred cows, but you can't blow them and fuck them up the ass at the same time.

IVCNUB4 might have a different take on that..


Have you been peeking in my bedroom window ? :twisted:
Victorian Squid wrote:In a DC/Marvel cross-over "all your favorite Marvel characters would catch contextually-transmitted diseases and Steph infections."

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