The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

by Punchy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:07 am

by Windom URL » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:14 am

by Punchy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:34 am

Victorian Squid wrote:Did I say "sexist" in this thread once?

Or did I say he wrote female characters badly, hmm?

by Windom URL » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:21 pm

Punchy wrote:
Semantics!

I know it's the done thing to hate on Stan Lee, but his characterisation of both men and women is far above almost any mainstream comics writer that came before him.

by Punchy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:29 pm

Victorian Squid wrote:
Do you wanna cracker with that?

In the earlier years, before Stan wrote anything anyone gave two shits about, just making Lois Lane a working woman and ace reporter was ahead of its time.

Stan making super-powered women glorified housewives constantly being spoken to in patronizing terms (as shown in this thread, for example) and fashion designers worried about what to wear came later, and was not.

by IvCNuB4 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:41 pm

by Schlemmer » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:18 pm

by LoganRSA » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:29 pm

Schlemmer wrote:list is incomplete; need to know the status of Razorback

by IvCNuB4 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:31 pm

by Windom URL » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:33 pm

IvCNuB4 wrote:Sue ranks as "Important" because she cooked, cleaned and got pregnant ?

What did Jan ever do "important" back then besides giggle, flirt and change outfits ?

by Punchy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:01 pm

Victorian Squid wrote:
She worried about Hank being mad at her and flirted with Thor IIRC.

That definitely trumps the much earlier ace reporter Lois Lane, or feminist icon Wonder Woman.

And, to the TWIP:

The way Lee changed superhero characterization was to insert all the "real-life" amateur drama stuff from the old romance comics into his superhero comics, not being forward-thinking about women's roles in society.

Which is why Venture Bros has Dr Impossible and Sally--it's not only a parody on what a dick Reed Richards was to Sue, or the idea of making your female lead vanish on command, it's a commentary on how women were written in comics at the time by Stan Lee (and others).

This was not his strong point. You can have your sacred cows, but you can't blow them and fuck them up the ass at the same time.

IVCNUB4 might have a different take on that..

by Windom URL » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:08 pm

Punchy wrote:
I never said that Lee was some kind of feminist progressive, just that his depiction of women was no worse, and probably a bit better than, his contemporaries, which means I feel it's harsh to label him a 'farty old hack'.

The whole medium at that wrote women 'terribly badly', no need to single Lee out is basically what I'm saying.

Punchy wrote:...his characterisation of both men and women is far above almost any mainstream comics writer that came before him.

Victorian Squid wrote:Mm, no they really weren't that different at all.

by Punchy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:11 pm

Victorian Squid wrote:

I get it, what you're trying to say is,



isn't true, but rather in the case of his depiction of women,



Gotcha.

by Windom URL » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:12 pm

Punchy wrote:
General characterisation is far above, depiction of women isn't.

by IvCNuB4 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:55 pm

Victorian Squid wrote:This was not his strong point. You can have your sacred cows, but you can't blow them and fuck them up the ass at the same time.

IVCNUB4 might have a different take on that..