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It's official: The Neo-Classic Legion is a flop.

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syxxpakk
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Re: It's official: The Neo-Classic Legion is a flop.

Postby syxxpakk » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:54 pm

Admitting you're wrong just too hard to do eh? :lol:
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Juan Cena
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Re: It's official: The Neo-Classic Legion is a flop.

Postby Juan Cena » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:10 pm

syxxpakk wrote:Admitting you're wrong just too hard to do eh? :lol:


No, it's just I can look at a big picture situation better.
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"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"
- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."


http://www.shirtswithrandomtriangles.com/

Check out Christmas in Nacirema
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh619160960893481469&shareImp=true#!/stations/play/619160960893481469

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Re: It's official: The Neo-Classic Legion is a flop.

Postby Arion » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:02 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
The difference is that Meltzer is a part-timer. Comics aren't his main focus. He comes in, throws things around, and leaves without any serious effort to clean up after his mess. Which is mostly the opposite of how Morrison works.


I'm glad to see that, although we are not exactly on the same page the debate has been quite interesting.

About Meltzer, I don't know. Let's asume I am a novelist (which I'm not) and I'm also a comic book writer (which I am if you take into account my indy stuff). I would hate to make a decision, if I could I would keep writing novels and comics. And I honestly don't think one thing invalidates the other.

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Re: It's official: The Neo-Classic Legion is a flop.

Postby Juan Cena » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:15 pm

Arion wrote:
I'm glad to see that, although we are not exactly on the same page the debate has been quite interesting.

About Meltzer, I don't know. Let's asume I am a novelist (which I'm not) and I'm also a comic book writer (which I am if you take into account my indy stuff). I would hate to make a decision, if I could I would keep writing novels and comics. And I honestly don't think one thing invalidates the other.


Except that you have to take time away from one to do the other. Which is why someone like Gaiman doesn't write many comics anymore. It took forever for him to commit to writing a new Sandman story, and I'm sure DC had to fork out a lot of money for that. (Because that was the reason he said he hasn't been writing more Sandman stories before this).
Image

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"
- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."


http://www.shirtswithrandomtriangles.com/

Check out Christmas in Nacirema
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh619160960893481469&shareImp=true#!/stations/play/619160960893481469

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Re: It's official: The Neo-Classic Legion is a flop.

Postby habitual » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:11 pm

Meltzer in the long run will ultimately be viewed as good for the JL title.

It brought back too many readers for anything else to matter, it's one of the few things Didio did correctly.

Hab

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Re: It's official: The Neo-Classic Legion is a flop.

Postby Juan Cena » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:21 pm

habitual wrote:Meltzer in the long run will ultimately be viewed as good for the JL title.

It brought back too many readers for anything else to matter, it's one of the few things Didio did correctly.

Hab


It was still a mercenary move with only a short-term gain. Once Meltzer left, and DC slowly removed Supes, Bruce, Diana, Hal, etc, from the book, sales started dropping. Not as bad as Legion, mind you. But enough to keep it out of the top 20.
Image

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"
- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."


http://www.shirtswithrandomtriangles.com/

Check out Christmas in Nacirema
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh619160960893481469&shareImp=true#!/stations/play/619160960893481469

habitual
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Re: It's official: The Neo-Classic Legion is a flop.

Postby habitual » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:54 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
It was still a mercenary move with only a short-term gain. Once Meltzer left, and DC slowly removed Supes, Bruce, Diana, Hal, etc, from the book, sales started dropping. Not as bad as Legion, mind you. But enough to keep it out of the top 20.


I think you drastically underestimate the number of readers that not only picked up a JL book, but, started picking up comics either again or for the first time based on the PR campaign this book received.

That's ultimately all that matters.

Hab

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Re: It's official: The Neo-Classic Legion is a flop.

Postby Juan Cena » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:04 pm

habitual wrote:
I think you drastically underestimate the number of readers that not only picked up a JL book, but, started picking up comics either again or for the first time based on the PR campaign this book received.

That's ultimately all that matters.

Hab


But how much of it was short-term sales, as opposed to long-term growth? What good is bringing in a writer for a limited run if sales go back down to the pre-run levels (or lower) when he leaves?
Image

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"
- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."


http://www.shirtswithrandomtriangles.com/

Check out Christmas in Nacirema
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh619160960893481469&shareImp=true#!/stations/play/619160960893481469

habitual
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Re: It's official: The Neo-Classic Legion is a flop.

Postby habitual » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:08 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
But how much of it was short-term sales, as opposed to long-term growth? What good is bringing in a writer for a limited run if sales go back down to the pre-run levels (or lower) when he leaves?


Because long term growth is the ultimate the goal of the industry, the bulk of what we see in comics is done to serve it, and in Meltzer's case it worked extremely well. If you achieve that everything else is irrelevant.

Hab

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Re: It's official: The Neo-Classic Legion is a flop.

Postby Juan Cena » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:36 pm

habitual wrote:
Because long term growth is the ultimate the goal of the industry, the bulk of what we see in comics is done to serve it, and in Meltzer's case it worked extremely well. If you achieve that everything else is irrelevant.

Hab


Is all that growth due to Meltzer, or to writers like Snyder or Bendis or Johns who have stayed on books long-term and became architects of what went on in Marvel and DC?

As for Justice League...

15 JLA 125 $2.50 (last JLA issue) DC 74,313

2 Justice League of America 12 (Meltzier's last issue) $3.50 DC 131,412

A year later

12 Justice League of America 24 $2.99 DC 81,408

two years later

29 Justice League of America 36 $2.99 DC 57,488

So much for long term growth...
Image

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"
- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."


http://www.shirtswithrandomtriangles.com/

Check out Christmas in Nacirema
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh619160960893481469&shareImp=true#!/stations/play/619160960893481469

habitual
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Re: It's official: The Neo-Classic Legion is a flop.

Postby habitual » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:20 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
Is all that growth due to Meltzer, or to writers like Snyder or Bendis or Johns who have stayed on books long-term and became architects of what went on in Marvel and DC?

As for Justice League...

15 JLA 125 $2.50 (last JLA issue) DC 74,313

2 Justice League of America 12 (Meltzier's last issue) $3.50 DC 131,412

A year later

12 Justice League of America 24 $2.99 DC 81,408

two years later

29 Justice League of America 36 $2.99 DC 57,488

So much for long term growth...


No, it was for Meltzer, the press was for a Meltzer book.

You overfocusing on JL sales is a straw man when we were discussing gaining or in some cases regaining long term buyers in total.

So, you're way off base here.

Hab

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Re: It's official: The Neo-Classic Legion is a flop.

Postby habitual » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:23 pm

Also I'd love to see a Meltzer/Giffen collaboration on Legion some day :smt038

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Re: It's official: The Neo-Classic Legion is a flop.

Postby Juan Cena » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:45 pm

habitual wrote:Also I'd love to see a Meltzer/Giffen collaboration on Legion some day :smt038

Hab


:smt011
Image

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"
- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."


http://www.shirtswithrandomtriangles.com/

Check out Christmas in Nacirema
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh619160960893481469&shareImp=true#!/stations/play/619160960893481469

Juan Cena
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Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:03 pm
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Title: The Lyrical Peyton Manning


Re: It's official: The Neo-Classic Legion is a flop.

Postby Juan Cena » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:59 pm

habitual wrote:
No, it was for Meltzer, the press was for a Meltzer book.

You overfocusing on JL sales is a straw man when we were discussing gaining or in some cases regaining long term buyers in total.

So, you're way off base here.

Hab


Do you have any hard numbers on this? Did Meltzer cause a long-term sales bump in Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, or in any of the books that weren't Identity Crisis crossovers?
Image

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"
- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."


http://www.shirtswithrandomtriangles.com/

Check out Christmas in Nacirema
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh619160960893481469&shareImp=true#!/stations/play/619160960893481469

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Re: It's official: The Neo-Classic Legion is a flop.

Postby Arion » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:31 am

Juan Cena wrote:
Except that you have to take time away from one to do the other. Which is why someone like Gaiman doesn't write many comics anymore. It took forever for him to commit to writing a new Sandman story, and I'm sure DC had to fork out a lot of money for that. (Because that was the reason he said he hasn't been writing more Sandman stories before this).


What Gaimen explained is that he gets certain percentage when he sells his novels, and in DC that percentage is a whole lot less. I don't see that as asking more money, only what is fair.

I'd love to have him writing more comics, but we can always read his novels and enjoy them just as much, eh?

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