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OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby Draco x » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:19 pm

Herald wrote:
Indeed. Anytime a character "apparently dies", but no one ever found the body, he/she ain't dead...


That is until they show up as undead zombie for no apparent reason in a major crossover. What kills me, Herald, is that it was clearly stated that JPV's body was never found so if he died where did his body go? They didn't even bother showing what impact Jean Paul's supposed death had on the Bat family. I would love to have known how Dick, Tim, Cassie, Barbara and everyone else reacted to his death but DC just acted like he never existed after his series ended. If they had at least given a proper sendoff to Jean Paul then I wouldn't have minded. It's ironic that a less popular character like Spoiler when she was thought dead after War Games the impact of her passing was clearly felt in the bat-books-same with Jason Todd who was even more hated that Jean Paul ever was. Plus giving us Michael Lane as a replacement was just forced editorial mandate given the fact that the Azrael fans clearly wanted Jean Paul back. Too bad Didio's stupidity prevented that for the time being. I never really got the antipathy for Didio up till this point as this had his influence all over it.

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby David Bird » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:45 am

Timbales wrote:I am seeing that comic book fans are a lot like music fans.

They seem to lock onto the music/comics of their mid to late teens and view that as "when it was good".


Actually, we're talking about DC continuity that existed right up to last year, not something that happened 20 years ago--although that continuity was more than 20 years old.

And continuity is important. Its the foundation of the publisher's brand marketing. Its why readers buy a line of comics, rather than one or two. While the readers don't own the characters, without them the characters would be worthless. How many issues would DC sell if they relied on staff for the purchases? How many movie tickets? Merchandising?

Many industries make bold changes in attempts to revive sales, no where do you see the contempt for readership that you see in comics, Something that they can get away with because of those readers that will buy whatever they are given and attack anyone who complains. At least until one the their favorite characters fall afoul of editorial policies. Then they are the losers living in the past.

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:49 am

David Bird wrote:
Actually, we're talking about DC continuity that existed right up to last year, not something that happened 20 years ago--although that continuity was more than 20 years old.

And continuity is important. Its the foundation of the publisher's brand marketing. Its why readers buy a line of comics, rather than one or two. While the readers don't own the characters, without them the characters would be worthless. How many issues would DC sell if they relied on staff for the purchases? How many movie tickets? Merchandising?

Many industries make bold changes in attempts to revive sales, no where do you see the contempt for readership that you see in comics, Something that they can get away with because of those readers that will buy whatever they are given and attack anyone who complains. At least until one the their favorite characters fall afoul of editorial policies. Then they are the losers living in the past.



That's not true. You see the exact same thing in pro wrestling. I imagine it is true of other niches as well.

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby David Bird » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:02 pm

I'm sorry. What, exactly, isn't true?

Oh, contempt for fans. Gotcha. Never mind.

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby XSpectreGreyX » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:03 am

Punchy wrote:She's toxic because she's unnecessary. DC already has a Batgirl and a Batwoman, they don't need more.

And once again, her fanbase is not a female fanbase, most of her fans seem to be men.


Which one? Cass and Steph both have decent fanbases (certainly more than Batwing), and are not exactly Power Girl. Hell, one of the reasons Brown's series was popular is because it was more lighthearted, especially when compared to other Bat books, so you even have age variation in the fanbase.

The thing is, DC seems to have gone out of its way to make Barbara Gordon Batgirl again. People liked her as Oracle. She was unique. So they robbed the DCU of a unique character to make her fill a role that they could've given to two other characters.

And really, don't talk about necessity in the reboot. There are many, many Bat-family books. Hell, Batman: The Dark Knight is not necessary at all. I'm willing to forgive Detective Comics, as it was a long running series, but why the need for The Dark Knight?

The whole reboot seems to be author appeal. Why is Barry the Flash again instead of Wally? Because DC's editors grew up with Barry. With Wally as the Flash, they could've at least had Barry as a supporting character or given him a normal life with Iris. But with Barry as the flash and Bart as Kid Flash, Wally is now retconned out of existence altogether.

And there also lies a problem. They're not only not using these characters, they're retconning some of them out of existence altogether. I understand that not all characters can have their own series, but why retcon them out of existence? Hell, War of the Robins sees Damian Wayne confronting each former Robin, but he doesn't even make mention of Stephanie Brown, so I'm assuming she was retconned out of existence. But the question remains: Why? (Besides the aforementioned appeal to editors.)

The current Batgirl series is good (not as great as some say it is, though), but I'm pissed that we had to lose three characters (Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown and Oracle) to get one.

Late post, but this issue really bugs me.

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby Herald » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:28 am

XSpectreGreyX wrote:The whole reboot seems to be Author Appeal.


:smt023

Frankly, the whole DiDio era is fanfic that just happens to be published by the characters' owners. BAD fanfic, at that.

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby XSpectreGreyX » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:18 pm

Herald wrote:
:smt023

Frankly, the whole DiDio era is fanfic that just happens to be published by the characters' owners. BAD fanfic, at that.


Yep, TVTropes sent me here :)

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby Herald » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:31 pm

XSpectreGreyX wrote:
Yep, TVTropes sent me here :)


Awesome. :-D

And so many people here thought that nothing good could come of that site. 8)

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby Keb » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:34 pm

I guess it's better than coming from the Youtube comments section. :?

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby Grayson » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:38 pm

Keb wrote:I guess it's better than coming from the Youtube comments section. :?


Only slightly. :P

We should all be glad that the people who comment on Youtube videos are fairly self contained. God forbid they ever ventured into the rest of the Internet. :shock:
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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby David Bird » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:42 pm

Rather than the lunatics running the asylum, I think of it as the fanboys driving the car versus the fanboys paying for the gas.

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby Herald » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 pm

David Bird wrote:Rather than the lunatics running the asylum


The events of the last 2 weeks give even more credence than ever to them being lunatics. :P 8)

I think of it as the fanboys driving the car versus the fanboys paying for the gas.


Frankly, we have both of those at the same time right now, so they're not mutually exclusive.

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby David Bird » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:24 pm

Herald wrote:Frankly, we have both of those at the same time right now, so they're not mutually exclusive.


That's kind of the point, having both of them.

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby Zechs » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:52 pm

XSpectreGreyX wrote:
Which one? Cass and Steph both have decent fanbases (certainly more than Batwing), and are not exactly Power Girl. Hell, one of the reasons Brown's series was popular is because it was more lighthearted, especially when compared to other Bat books, so you even have age variation in the fanbase.

The thing is, DC seems to have gone out of its way to make Barbara Gordon Batgirl again. People liked her as Oracle. She was unique. So they robbed the DCU of a unique character to make her fill a role that they could've given to two other characters.

And really, don't talk about necessity in the reboot. There are many, many Bat-family books. Hell, Batman: The Dark Knight is not necessary at all. I'm willing to forgive Detective Comics, as it was a long running series, but why the need for The Dark Knight?

The whole reboot seems to be author appeal. Why is Barry the Flash again instead of Wally? Because DC's editors grew up with Barry. With Wally as the Flash, they could've at least had Barry as a supporting character or given him a normal life with Iris. But with Barry as the flash and Bart as Kid Flash, Wally is now retconned out of existence altogether.

And there also lies a problem. They're not only not using these characters, they're retconning some of them out of existence altogether. I understand that not all characters can have their own series, but why retcon them out of existence? Hell, War of the Robins sees Damian Wayne confronting each former Robin, but he doesn't even make mention of Stephanie Brown, so I'm assuming she was retconned out of existence. But the question remains: Why? (Besides the aforementioned appeal to editors.)

The current Batgirl series is good (not as great as some say it is, though), but I'm pissed that we had to lose three characters (Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown and Oracle) to get one.

Late post, but this issue really bugs me.



For Cassandra's case see my OP/ED. There's some evidence to point you in the directions of the numerous ways DC tried to get rid of her in the past.

http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/ ... tune.html/

Stephanie? I think the higher up's never liked the character to begin with. However, Didio saw the appeal of her as Batgirl and went with it before the higher up's probably demanded he try the original idea proposed with Barbara back as Batgirl.
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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby Herald » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:04 pm

David Bird wrote:
That's kind of the point, having both of them.


But some of the fanboys paying for the gas are on the drivers' side.
(That's crazy, I know! :P But some of them are!)

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