The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[Juan Cena]

Batman and Batman and Robin have been good.

The GL titles were good. This First Lantern story is

Barbara being Batgirl is dumb as well. Better to have left her in the chair. Better character.

Overall, DC has done more harm than good with this 52 shit and they know it...

I think Gail did a tremendous job with Babs returning as Batgirl.

As much as the fans of Babs as Oracle (and I was one), the fact is that technology has had really reached the point where her status quo in the DCU as the uber-tech person was becoming redundant. A lot of the stuff she did for other heroes they can do themselves with a smart phone or tablet or in some other way incorporated in their costume (see Batman).

[Draco x]

Ummmm.....the artwork is nice.

[The Old Doctor]

So basically, other the stuff that was not changed (Bat and GL stuff), Aquaman and Wonder Woman was really about it. OMAC, I Vampire and Demon Knights are also mentions along with Earth 2 and maybe World's Finest.

Ouch.

Well at least I agree about Aquaman but need to check out WW, yet still don't see the good in Earth 2 or WF... but then I'm old.

[GiveWarAChance]

Getting to see J.H. Williams III art on Batwoman is a plus.
Supergirl not wearing a skirt is good.
Power Girl not having her ridiculous boob window was good while it lasted.

For a DC newbie like me, the reboot offered me a great jumping on point to try out lots of comics that were bogged down in endless continuity. The constant creative changes and cancellations has left me with only a few titles that I'm currently reading though.

[IvCNuB4]

If Green Lantern etc was not rebooted then how do you explain the new 5-year history of those characters and outfit changes, etc ?
Why isn't it possible that even in a new universe some characters had similar events happen to them in the last few years ? That would explain why GL and Batman story lines seemed to pick up right where they left off pre-reboot.

[The Old Doctor]

Getting to see J.H. Williams III art on Batwoman is a plus.
Supergirl not wearing a skirt is good.
Power Girl not having her ridiculous boob window was good while it lasted.

For a DC newbie like me, the reboot offered me a great jumping on point to try out lots of comics that were bogged down in endless continuity. The constant creative changes and cancellations has left me with only a few titles that I'm currently reading though.

The Batwoman stuff looks sweet (I've yet to read any) but I think that like most of the Bat titles, continues prior stuff.

Which combines with GL to say basically that the unchanged worked more then the new stuff.

I too like the new Supergirl costume... but wish she had blue leggings with it. Those knee holes are annoying.

I love the ridiculous boob window on PG. It's like the cleft in Superman and Supergirl's boots... a visual hallmark of the character.

But interesting points. Did you find Bat titles and the GL titles hard to jump into?

[GiveWarAChance]

The Batwoman stuff looks sweet (I've yet to read any) but I think that like most of the Bat titles, continues prior stuff.

Which combines with GL to say basically that the unchanged worked more then the new stuff.

I too like the new Supergirl costume... but wish she had blue leggings with it. Those knee holes are annoying.

I love the ridiculous boob window on PG. It's like the cleft in Superman and Supergirl's boots... a visual hallmark of the character.

But interesting points. Did you find Bat titles and the GL titles hard to jump into?

You're right about Batwoman continuing from prior stuff. That was one of the few DC characters I actually had some prior knowledge about. The art has been mind blowing. The writing has been mind blowing too, just not in a good way.

Prior to the reboot, I think I was reading two DC monthly titles. That went up to five titles right after the reboot. So far I have tried out nine of DC's offerings. I haven't had a problem jumping into any of them. I try to stay away from the big titles like Superman, Batman, Aquaman, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman. I have been tempted to pick up Batman and Wonder Woman though.

[HNutz]

The one thing they did right: create a jumping on point for new readers. The question one has to ask in regards to this, or the Nu52 as a whole, is "Was it worth it?" Could a jumping on point have been created without tossing everything? Could Aquaman have become the wonderful character he is now without a reboot? Could the Joker have become a complete waste of space without the reboot? Even the few moments and pleasures I've enjoyed could have been done without sacrificing everything they threw away.

They created a jumping on point for new readers at the cost of old readers. It wasn't worth it, it wasn't necessary.

How do these jumping on points compare to the jumping on points from Marvel NOW?

[The Old Doctor]

You're right about Batwoman continuing from prior stuff. That was one of the few DC characters I actually had some prior knowledge about. The art has been mind blowing. The writing has been mind blowing too, just not in a good way.

Prior to the reboot, I think I was reading two DC monthly titles. That went up to five titles right after the reboot. So far I have tried out nine of DC's offerings. I haven't had a problem jumping into any of them. I try to stay away from the big titles like Superman, Batman, Aquaman, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman. I have been tempted to pick up Batman and Wonder Woman though.

Aquaman is or was worth it. Easy to jump onto as there was very little carried over. I'm the same with Batman and Wonder Woman thanks to posts here.

[The Old Doctor]

How do these jumping on points compare to the jumping on points from Marvel NOW?

Damn good point.

But a thought on jumping on points... how could the history of DC comics be bad for jumping on, yet not Marvel with Now or for that matter with Young Justice the animated series? People jumped on, so... is this a false concept that fans/potential fans create? I suspect so given the success of YJ and honestly, the longevity of both DC and Marvel for not years, but decades and that is also with noting the belief of a five year turn around on fandom.

I also want to point out.. perhaps spin out of this... a point I think I've come to.

I think the 7 year compression works. Batman seems to prove it can work as the popularity has never wavered in 30 something years. But think about it. IF we take the 30s, 40s and 50s as a compressed year one and then compress each following decade into a year... we keep the major character building points, the really good stories... choose the character or family of character and what's tossed really and what's kept? What impact is there really with that "editing"? What were the ones that helped define the character(s)? Use Superman first then Wonder Woman for example.

Year One (30s/40s/50s)
Superman starts his "career".
Superman gains a cousin, Supergirl, by the end of the year.

Year Two (60s)
help founds the JLA

Year Three (70s)
Really having a hard time thinking of real impact on the character moments.

Year Four (80s)
More of the same. Rendered more so by the Crisis reboot.

Year Five (90s)
He dies. Comes back... gets married.... gets a electric for a little while...

Year Six (00s)
Uhhhh

Except for things that Morrison covered in 52 with the hows and whens of Superman finding out about his powers, their extents, his day job... bupkiss... Nadda... even with the changing Fortresses... there is not a lot to carry forward. Now this is either a sign that creators really did bugger all or they got kept from doing anything. Or everything kept getting put back... but why then? Bad changes... poorly thought out... perceived good and bad for the character?

Batman is probably, with all the "family" of characters like Dick, Babs, Kathy, Selina, Bette, Jason, Helena, Tim, Steph, Cass, Kate, Damien... the most filled out in comparison.


Year One (30s/40s/50s)
Batman starts his "career".
Dick Grayson becomes the first Robin
Kathy Kane becomes the first Batwoman.
Bette Kane becomes the first Bat-Girl.

Year Two (60s)
Kathy Kane and Bette Kane retire.
Barbara Gordon becomes the second Batgirl.

Year Three (70s)
Kathy Kane is killed by the League of Assassins (or whoever it was).
Bette Kane comes out of retirement for a few adventures and goes back to it.

Year Four (80s)
Dick Grayson becomes Nightwing.
Jason Todd becomes the second Robin.
Helena Bertinelli becomes The Huntress.
Barbara Gordon retires as Batgirl due to injury by the Joker.
Bette Kane becomes Flamebird
Jason Todd dies (or nearly does).
Tim Drake becomes the third Robin

Year Five (90s)
Jean Paul Valley becomes Azreal.
Stephanie Brown becomes The Spoiler.
Jean Paul Valley becomes Batman.
Dick Grayson becomes Batman.
Bruce Wayne goes back to being Batman.
Dick Grayson goes back to being Nightwing.
Jean Paul Valley goes back to being Azreal.
Stephanie Brown becomes the fourth Robin.
Stephanie Brown goes back to being The Spoiler.
Helena Bertinelli becomes the third Batgirl.
Helena Bertinelli goes back to being The Huntress.
Cassandra Cain becomes the fourth Batgirl

Year Six (00s)
Jean Paul Valley dies. (?)
Damien Wayne becomes the Fifth Robin.

Year Seven (10s)
Stephanie Brown becomes the fifth Batgirl.
Cassandra Cain becomes the Black Bat.
Dick Grayson becomes Batman again.
Bruce Wayne goes back to being Batman.
Damien Wayne dies.

Miss anything?

Think about.

[The Old Doctor]

I was bored.

[Mr. Log]

How do these jumping on points compare to the jumping on points from Marvel NOW?

That's a good question. It's hard to compare exactly. DC's was much more obvious, it was sweeping and broad in scope, and (in theory) required absolutely no knowledge of previous continuity (in fact, knowledge of previous continuity was a major hindrance). Everything started at #1 in the same month. I'm not sure how effective it all was in this respect, but it made sense for people that were interested in starting from the beginning.

Marvel's was not nearly as comprehensive, wasn't nearly as drastic in story reset, and for a large part looked like a renumbering for the sake of renumbering. There was nothing necessary about it. This also means it wasn't nearly as jarring and knowledge of past continuity wasn't necessarily going to cause problems. It also took much longer to get everything rolling. I wonder how many new readers it actually grabbed and how friendly they found it.

[Herald]

Damn good point.

But a thought on jumping on points... how could the history of DC comics be bad for jumping on, yet not Marvel with Now or for that matter with Young Justice the animated series? People jumped on, so... is this a false concept that fans/potential fans create?I suspect so given the success of YJ and honestly, the longevity of both DC and Marvel for not years, but decades and that is also with noting the belief of a five year turn around on fandom.

Indeed.

How many people became fans of Doctor Who in recent years?? You don't hear people whining about being lost jumping into that series with the 9th, 10th, or 11th Doctor instead of starting out all the way back on the 1st episode with the 1st Doctor back in 1963. And that's with the Doctors history with the Daleks, the Cybermen, the Sontarans, his fellow Time Lords, etc. Previous companion Sarah Jane showed up in some 10th Doctor episodes; why weren't newer fans throwing their hands up in hopeless confusion about who she was, and running screaming from the show?? Funny how THAT series didn't need a continuity reboot to experience a major renaissance...

How many current Spidey fans started reading Spider-Man with Amazing Fantasy #15?? And yet, they've all managed just fine. Same with all the current Batman fans who didn't manage to grab Detective Comics #27 off the stands back in '39. And so on with so many other Long Running characters.

"There's too much continuity for me to jump in there!!" has always been a cheap cop-out excuse, even if you conveniently ignore that there are numerous sites like this one with people who can get you up to speed on the desired information about any series or character.

Year Six (00s)
Uhhhh

All you had to do was ASK.

[nietoperz]

The thing is (and as others have pointed out) the true triumphs of the New 52 would have worked just as well in the old DCU - think of Batman, Swamp Thing and Animal Man: they just built upon previous continuity. The real fuck-ups have been the books where DC has elected just to start again. Superman is unrecognisable, as are his peripheral characters. Ditto the Titans. It's just not a good idea.

One other thing: John Constantine can work perfectly well in the DCU. After all, he started out there, and it was really only in recent years that his book started to exist in its own reality, as it were. What does not work for the character is running around battling super-villains and being part of Justice League events.

[The Old Doctor]

Indeed.

How many people became fans of Doctor Who in recent years?? You don't hear people whining about being lost jumping into that series with the 9th, 10th, or 11th Doctor instead of starting out all the way back on the 1st episode with the 1st Doctor back in 1963. And that's with the Doctors history with the Daleks, the Cybermen, the Sontarans, his fellow Time Lords, etc. Previous companion Sarah Jane showed up in some 10th Doctor episodes; why weren't newer fans throwing their hands up in hopeless confusion about who she was, and running screaming from the show?? Funny how THAT series didn't need a continuity reboot to experience a major renaissance...

How many current Spidey fans started reading Spider-Man with Amazing Fantasy #15?? And yet, they've all managed just fine. Same with all the current Batman fans who didn't manage to grab Detective Comics #27 off the stands back in '39. And so on with so many other Long Running characters.

"There's too much continuity for me to jump in there!!" has always been a cheap cop-out excuse, even if you conveniently ignore that there are numerous sites like this one with people who can get you up to speed on the desired information about any series or character.





All you had to do was ASK.

I was blanking out that era for a reason... Superman emo... yuck.

My thought and question as well, is why is it that they the publishers not making ALL the work concerning their characters accessible both ways? Yes, they need to be accessible to new readers but old as well for new works, but also why not keep a door open for new fans to better understand and enjoy the older stuff? They own it and well, might as well make money off of reprints. The Dr Who point is a great one considering the number of folks that are going back to watch the classic.