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Bendis reveals how big AoU death changed Marvel Continuity

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Punchy

Staff Writer

Postby Punchy » Fri May 03, 2013 5:08 am

So, in Age Of Ultron, Wolverine travelled back in town and killed Hank Pym to stop Ultron from ever being created.

This of course changed continuity, and man, Marvel put a lot of thought into this, as this document posted on Bendis' Tumblr shows:

http://brianmichaelbendis.tumblr.com/post/49489930167/so-would-you-consider-sharing-those-ideas-as-to-how

i will share this with you… this was the doc created to reverse Engineer the Marvel universe based on the death of Hank pym…
get ready to get dizzy :)

EVENTS POTENTIALLY UNDONE BY HANK PYM’S DEATH (and resulting ripple effects)
1 - Creation of Ultron
A - No Vision
1 - No marriage to Scarlet Witch/Immortus plan to prevent her from breeding possibly derailed
2 - No birth of children (Speed & Wiccan of Young Avengers)
3 - No undoing of their children, which Immortus engineered in part to ensure Scarlet Witch’s mental instability and thus pliability
a – Mephisto and Master Pandemonium affected
4 - No Leonia, NJ-based events (Vision and Scarlet Witch maxi-series)
a - No opportunity for Crystal to meet and have affair with Norman Webster
1 - No divorce from Quicksilver
5 - No defeating Salem’s Seven
a – they conquer the witch town of New Salem, and we have an entire town of evil black mages working against humanity
6 – Does not form West Coast Avengers
7 - No Scarlet Witch insanity
a – No Disassembled deaths of Ant-Man/Lang, Jack of Hearts, Vision destruction
b – No M/M-Day/Decimation
1- Hundreds of X-Men/mutant stories undone
8 - Grim Reaper’s Lethal Legion potentially defeat and slay Avengers (Captain America, Black Panther, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch)
1- Thousands of ripple effects from those deaths
2- Grim Reaper won’t later feel the need to revive his “dead” brother Wonder Man as a zombie, which means Wonder Man presumably remains dormant
9 - Vision not present as one of the Dead Avengers who save the living Avengers during the Chaos War.
B - No Crimson Cowl
1 - No Jarvis betrayal
C - No Jocasta
1 - Lots of battles go that bit worse without her (without her neutralizing the internal defenses, Beast doesn’t manage to get inside Red Ronin during his rampage, robot destroys the Long Island expressway during rush hour., she was instrumental in team’s first defeat of Taskmaster, Evolutionary War finale, etc.)
D - No Alkhema
1 - No Bio-Synthezoids, War Toys, Robos
2 - Mockingbird not abducted by Skrulls, or at least not in the same way (her abduction by Alkhema and the team’s battle with Alkie was the cover for the Skrulls’ abduction of Mockingbird)
E - No slaughter in Slorenia
1 - No giant Bloodwraith
F - No sentient Iron Man armor
1 - Blacklash doesn’t die
G - No Victor Mancha
1 - Gertrude Yorkes doesn’t die
H - No role in Annihilation: Conquest
1 - Star-Lord’s Guardians of the Galaxy don’t form
2 - Deathcry doesn’t die
3 - Spaceknights not taken over by Phalanx
4 – No further devastation of Kree Empire
5 - Moondragon doesn’t die
a – Phylla-Vell does not become Martyr
6 - Second major war that causes the Fault doesn’t happen - possibly negating the result of War of Kings and the Cancerverse’s attempted infestation of the universe, further negating Thanos’ resurrection and Nova (Rider) and Star-Lord’s sacrifice
I - No marriage to Jocasta
J - No possession of the Intelligencia’s inert Spaceknight body
K - No revival of Jim Hammond, the original Human Torch, after Mad Thinker’s usage of him against the FF
1 - Spitfire would not have been rejuvenated without a second dose of Human Torch blood
A - Spitfire’s absence may have affected various missions by the New Invaders and MI-13
2 - Marriage to Janet Van Dyne
A - Wasp’s chauffeur Charles Matthews never fired (events leading to same in Marvel Feature wouldn’t have happened without Hank), and Charles possibly never exposed as the Whirlwind/David Cannon (it was Pym who finally figured it out after years of Charles’ double identity going unsuspected by Hank, Jan and all the other Avengers). More than once, Whirlwind (David Cannon) has captured or defeated the Wasp, only to have Hank Pym arrive to save her or team up with her. Without Hank, it’s likely Wasp might not have escaped one of Whirlwind’s attempts.
3 - Bill Foster might have become Black Goliath sooner
A – Become a more confident, A-list hero without being in Hank Pym’s shadow
4 - Equipment being available for Scott Lang to steal to become Ant-Man and rescue surgeon to save his daughter’s life (Even if he still broke into Pym’s old lab and became Ant-Man, he’d have died during his first mission if Pym hadn’t been secretly tagging along and protected him a few times.)
A - Cassie dies
1 - No Stature
B - Surgeon Lang rescued, Erica Sondheim, remains imprisoned by her captor
1 – Not available to later implant bio-tech chip that restored crippled Tony Stark, and later saved his life when it went wrong - without her, Stark either remains crippled or dies
5 - Becoming Yellowjacket
A - Rita de Mara does not become Yellowjacket
1 – Is not present in Evolutionary War finale
2 – Is not present in any Guardians of the Galaxy story
3 – No death during the Crossing
4 – Is not present in Chaos War to help save Avengers, others
6 - Joining Defenders (as YJ)
A- does not rescue captured Defenders Dr. Strange, Valkyrie and Hulk from the Squadron Sinister
7 - Mental breakdown/imprisonment/divorce from Janet Van Dyne
A - No court-martial
B - Jan doesn’t have affair with Tony Stark/Iron Man while Hank was imprisoned
C - Jan doesn’t become the chastened Avengers leader later on (significantly affecting Masters of Evil’s siege of Mansion and Kang Dynasty, amongst others) OR conversely, Hank’s death forces this to happen much earlier
8 - Preventing Egghead’s schemes
A - Egghead would have forced his niece Trish Starr into his robot, destroying her individuality and body.
9 - Death of Egghead
A - Egghead remains with Intelligencia, possibly eliminating MODOK’s involvement - no Red Hulk/She-Hulk, World War Hulks, Hulked-Out Heroes
10 - Joining West Coast Avengers (which wouldn’t exist without Vision)
A - No participation in Time-Lost Saga - possibly leaving WCA stranded in the past
11 - No creation of MODAM (AIM scientists were unable to advance SODAM’s development without Pym’s help.)
A - The Cosmic Cube disaster during “Taking AIM” might have been worse, with MODOK being reactivated sooner
B - No Number None (the baby MODOK who claims his mother is MODAM)
C - No SILENT, no HATE, and no Nextwave: Agents of HATE
1 - Undoing character development leading to a more independently confident Photon, a more bloodthirsty Elsa Bloodstone and the human-hating/zombie killing Machine Man
12 - No dimension-crossing experiments resulting in fugitive St. Looie’s hitman from being lost in “Otherwhere”
13 - Relationship with Firebird/Espirita
14 - Relationship with Tigra
A – As mentioned below, Tigra’s son would probably never be born, since the Skrull who fathered said son was posing as Pym
15 – Participation in stopping Vibro from destroying LA with earthquakes
16 - Participation in the Crossing
A - Jan not mutated, dies of injuries at hands of Iron Man
17 - Participation in Heroes Reborn
A - Counter-Earth (Franklin) native and Avengers janitor Ernest Sanger would never have become Mant, the size-changing leader of the Remnants
18 - Participation in Destiny War (Possible Immortus picked a different Pym from another era/reality, so things might well have still gone much as seen)
A – Doesn’t double cross both sides as Yellowjacket
B - Rick Jones does not get involved in final battle
C - Time-Keepers survive
1 – No final event prompting Lilandra to sponsor Maximum Security
a – Quasar does not absorb Ego
2 - Reality-616 destroyed by Time-Keepers
19 - Curing of Firestar’s radiation problem
A – Leading to earlier or worse cancer/death
20 - Pym not available to supervise treatment and containment of Jack of Hearts’ unstable physiology
21 - Replacement by Skrull(s)
A - Various Skrulls that replaced him not participate in Initiative/Camp Hammond
B - The Skrulls would have needed another highly placed superhuman genius to replace instead of Hank Pym.
C - No GI-Ant-Man suit for Eric O’Grady to steal
1 - O’Grady dies in Helicarrier crash, never becomes Ant-Man
D – No Skrull relationship with Tigra
1 - William Garson never born
22 - Dark Reign events
A - No Infinite Mansion
B - No Dark Reign-era Mighty Avengers
1 - Amadeus Cho/Vision Jonas/Stature’s membership negated
2 - Chthon victorious
C - Not named Scientist Supreme
23 - Instruction at Avengers Academy
A - Veil, Hazmat, Mettle - not receiving treatment for various conditions

NOTE: During She-Hulk’s encounter with the TVA (Time Variation Authority) it was established that if an individual was removed from the timestream, in some instances time would cope by using a suitable stand-in to fulfill the their role. However, obviously more unique individuals or major events would be impacted greatly if the protagonist was removed. The early demise of Hank Pym and the impact his death has on any of the subsequent events listed above could be discounted as events still could have happened with a Pym-substitute.
User avatar

habitual

Silly French Man

Postby habitual » Fri May 03, 2013 5:26 am

I stopped after 1A.

Hab

3MJ

Postby 3MJ » Fri May 03, 2013 5:27 am

Fair play I suppose.
User avatar

Tintin Quarantino

Rain Partier

Postby Tintin Quarantino » Fri May 03, 2013 5:42 am

Why would you black out "Hank Pym" when that is not only totally fucking obvious from the context but also spelled out in the first line of the post you quoted?
User avatar

habitual

Silly French Man

Postby habitual » Fri May 03, 2013 5:55 am

Victorian Squid wrote:Why would you black out "Hank Pym" when that is not only totally fucking obvious from the context but also spelled out in the first line of the post you quoted?


It makes about as much sense as thinking you could telegraph everything after 1A.

Hab
User avatar

GHERU

Rain Partier

Postby GHERU » Fri May 03, 2013 6:15 am

DC probably had the same kind of document after Flashpoint
Heck, that reads alot like Booster's chalk-board
User avatar

Johnny Smith

Expert Post Whore

Postby Johnny Smith » Fri May 03, 2013 7:55 am

WOW! This is awesome.

"No Alkhema"

thank you Punchy :-D
User avatar

HNutz

Silly French Man

Postby HNutz » Fri May 03, 2013 8:05 am

Punchy wrote:i will share this with you… this was the doc created to reverse Engineer the Marvel universe based on the death of Hank pym…
get ready to get dizzy :)

EVENTS POTENTIALLY UNDONE BY HANK PYM’S DEATH (and resulting ripple effects)
1 - Creation of Ultron
A - No Vision
1 - No marriage to Scarlet Witch
2 - No birth of children (Speed & Wiccan of Young Avengers)
3 - No undoing of their children, which Immortus engineered in part to ensure Scarlet Witch’s mental instability and thus pliability
a – Mephisto and Master Pandemonium affected
4 - No Leonia, NJ-based events (Vision and Scarlet Witch maxi-series)
a - No opportunity for Crystal to meet and have affair with Norman Webster
1 - No divorce from Quicksilver
5 - No defeating Salem’s Seven
a – they conquer the witch town of New Salem, and we have an entire town of evil black mages working against humanity
6 – Does not form West Coast Avengers
7 - No Scarlet Witch insanity
a – No Disassembled deaths of Ant-Man/Lang, Jack of Hearts, Vision destruction
b – No M/M-Day/Decimation
1- Hundreds of X-Men/mutant stories undone
8 - Grim Reaper’s Lethal Legion potentially defeat and slay Avengers (Captain America, Black Panther, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch)
1- Thousands of ripple effects from those deaths
2- Grim Reaper won’t later feel the need to revive his “dead” brother Wonder Man as a zombie, which means Wonder Man presumably remains dormant
9 - Vision not present as one of the Dead Avengers who save the living Avengers during the Chaos War.
B - No Crimson Cowl
1 - No Jarvis betrayal
C - No Jocasta
1 - Lots of battles go that bit worse without her (without her neutralizing the internal defenses, Beast doesn’t manage to get inside Red Ronin during his rampage, robot destroys the Long Island expressway during rush hour., she was instrumental in team’s first defeat of Taskmaster, Evolutionary War finale, etc.)
D - No Alkhema
1 - No Bio-Synthezoids, War Toys, Robos
2 - Mockingbird not abducted by Skrulls, or at least not in the same way (her abduction by Alkhema and the team’s battle with Alkie was the cover for the Skrulls’ abduction of Mockingbird)
E - No slaughter in Slorenia
1 - No giant Bloodwraith
F - No sentient Iron Man armor
1 - Blacklash doesn’t die
G - No Victor Mancha
1 - Gertrude Yorkes doesn’t die
H - No role in Annihilation: Conquest
1 - Star-Lord’s Guardians of the Galaxy don’t form
2 - Deathcry doesn’t die
3 - Spaceknights not taken over by Phalanx
4 – No further devastation of Kree Empire
5 - Moondragon doesn’t die
a – Phylla-Vell does not become Martyr
6 - Second major war that causes the Fault doesn’t happen - possibly negating the result of War of Kings and the Cancerverse’s attempted infestation of the universe, further negating Thanos’ resurrection and Nova (Rider) and Star-Lord’s sacrifice
I - No marriage to Jocasta
J - No possession of the Intelligencia’s inert Spaceknight body
K - No revival of Jim Hammond, the original Human Torch, after Mad Thinker’s usage of him against the FF
1 - Spitfire would not have been rejuvenated without a second dose of Human Torch blood
A - Spitfire’s absence may have affected various missions by the New Invaders and MI-13
2 - Marriage to Janet Van Dyne
A - Wasp’s chauffeur Charles Matthews never fired (events leading to same in Marvel Feature wouldn’t have happened without Hank), and Charles possibly never exposed as the Whirlwind/David Cannon (it was Pym who finally figured it out after years of Charles’ double identity going unsuspected by Hank, Jan and all the other Avengers). More than once, Whirlwind (David Cannon) has captured or defeated the Wasp, only to have Hank Pym arrive to save her or team up with her. Without Hank, it’s likely Wasp might not have escaped one of Whirlwind’s attempts.
3 - Bill Foster might have become Black Goliath sooner
A – Become a more confident, A-list hero without being in Hank Pym’s shadow
4 - Equipment being available for Scott Lang to steal to become Ant-Man and rescue surgeon to save his daughter’s life (Even if he still broke into Pym’s old lab and became Ant-Man, he’d have died during his first mission if Pym hadn’t been secretly tagging along and protected him a few times.)
A - Cassie dies
1 - No Stature
B - Surgeon Lang rescued, Erica Sondheim, remains imprisoned by her captor
1 – Not available to later implant bio-tech chip that restored crippled Tony Stark, and later saved his life when it went wrong - without her, Stark either remains crippled or dies
5 - Becoming Yellowjacket
A - Rita de Mara does not become Yellowjacket
1 – Is not present in Evolutionary War finale
2 – Is not present in any Guardians of the Galaxy story
3 – No death during the Crossing
4 – Is not present in Chaos War to help save Avengers, others
6 - Joining Defenders (as YJ)
A- does not rescue captured Defenders Dr. Strange, Valkyrie and Hulk from the Squadron Sinister
7 - Mental breakdown/imprisonment/divorce from Janet Van Dyne
A - No court-martial
B - Jan doesn’t have affair with Tony Stark/Iron Man while Hank was imprisoned
C - Jan doesn’t become the chastened Avengers leader later on (significantly affecting Masters of Evil’s siege of Mansion and Kang Dynasty, amongst others) OR conversely, Hank’s death forces this to happen much earlier
8 - Preventing Egghead’s schemes
A - Egghead would have forced his niece Trish Starr into his robot, destroying her individuality and body.
9 - Death of Egghead
A - Egghead remains with Intelligencia, possibly eliminating MODOK’s involvement - no Red Hulk/She-Hulk, World War Hulks, Hulked-Out Heroes
10 - Joining West Coast Avengers (which wouldn’t exist without Vision)
A - No participation in Time-Lost Saga - possibly leaving WCA stranded in the past
11 - No creation of MODAM (AIM scientists were unable to advance SODAM’s development without Pym’s help.)
A - The Cosmic Cube disaster during “Taking AIM” might have been worse, with MODOK being reactivated sooner
B - No Number None (the baby MODOK who claims his mother is MODAM)
C - No SILENT, no HATE, and no Nextwave: Agents of HATE
1 - Undoing character development leading to a more independently confident Photon, a more bloodthirsty Elsa Bloodstone and the human-hating/zombie killing Machine Man
12 - No dimension-crossing experiments resulting in fugitive St. Looie’s hitman from being lost in “Otherwhere”
13 - Relationship with Firebird/Espirita
14 - Relationship with Tigra
A – As mentioned below, Tigra’s son would probably never be born, since the Skrull who fathered said son was posing as Pym
15 – Participation in stopping Vibro from destroying LA with earthquakes
16 - Participation in the Crossing
A - Jan not mutated, dies of injuries at hands of Iron Man
17 - Participation in Heroes Reborn
A - Counter-Earth (Franklin) native and Avengers janitor Ernest Sanger would never have become Mant, the size-changing leader of the Remnants
18 - Participation in Destiny War (Possible Immortus picked a different Pym from another era/reality, so things might well have still gone much as seen)
A – Doesn’t double cross both sides as Yellowjacket
B - Rick Jones does not get involved in final battle
C - Time-Keepers survive
1 – No final event prompting Lilandra to sponsor Maximum Security
a – Quasar does not absorb Ego
2 - Reality-616 destroyed by Time-Keepers
19 - Curing of Firestar’s radiation problem
A – Leading to earlier or worse cancer/death
20 - Pym not available to supervise treatment and containment of Jack of Hearts’ unstable physiology
21 - Replacement by Skrull(s)
A - Various Skrulls that replaced him not participate in Initiative/Camp Hammond
B - The Skrulls would have needed another highly placed superhuman genius to replace instead of Hank Pym.
C - No GI-Ant-Man suit for Eric O’Grady to steal
1 - O’Grady dies in Helicarrier crash, never becomes Ant-Man
D – No Skrull relationship with Tigra
1 - William Garson never born
22 - Dark Reign events
A - No Infinite Mansion
B - No Dark Reign-era Mighty Avengers
1 - Amadeus Cho/Vision Jonas/Stature’s membership negated
2 - Chthon victorious
C - Not named Scientist Supreme
23 - Instruction at Avengers Academy
A - Veil, Hazmat, Mettle - not receiving treatment for various conditions

NOTE: During She-Hulk’s encounter with the TVA (Time Variation Authority) it was established that if an individual was removed from the timestream, in some instances time would cope by using a suitable stand-in to fulfill the their role. However, obviously more unique individuals or major events would be impacted greatly if the protagonist was removed. The early demise of Hank Pym and the impact his death has on any of the subsequent events listed above could be discounted as events still could have happened with a Pym-substitute.


A.K.A "Why it won't stick".

Cool to see the thought processes, though.
User avatar

mrorangesoda

FROGMAN

Postby mrorangesoda » Fri May 03, 2013 8:15 am

He forgot to mention that Janet would have gone unslapped.
User avatar

Punchy

Staff Writer

Postby Punchy » Fri May 03, 2013 8:17 am

Victorian Squid wrote:Why would you black out "Hank Pym" when that is not only totally fucking obvious from the context but also spelled out in the first line of the post you quoted?


I just like the Blackout function :smt102
User avatar

Keb

<( ' . ' )>

Postby Keb » Fri May 03, 2013 9:08 am

Maybe if he put some of that effort into Age of Ultron, it would actually be semi-decent. The fact that Bendis can compile this list in his spare time just proves thatfanboys need to not be writers. Too much attachment to the characters.
User avatar

LoganRSA

penile prisoner

Postby LoganRSA » Fri May 03, 2013 9:18 am

In my mind, this just goes to show how completely fucked up the base reasoning of going back to kill Pym really is. It's just such a ridiculous, knee jerk reaction that defies all heroic actions for decades. From now on, no solution to ANY problem can be justified because going back in time to put things right is the answer, even if putting things right means killing a good guy. The universe isn't a fucking Nintendo game, you can't just go back to a save point and try again. That's supposed to be the whole point: consequences! Fuck, that's Ultron's entire story!! But from now on there are no consequences, unless it results in broody big titty art and stabby stabby. Fuck, it just makes me so---godfuckdamncuntshitpissgaaaAAAAHHHH!!! I hate it SO MUCH!!!



If it's that fucking simple, what is the excuse for NOT going back to kill Hitler? Or Wanda before Disassembled or "No more mutants"? Or stopping Civil War or cap getting shot? I mean, for the love of fuck! Death is already a complete fucking joke, how can any action besides going back in time mean jackgoddamnfuckingshit anymore?!?



I need a drink.
User avatar

Keb

<( ' . ' )>

Postby Keb » Fri May 03, 2013 9:34 am

I think you need a visit from Lola.
User avatar

Johnny Smith

Expert Post Whore

Postby Johnny Smith » Fri May 03, 2013 10:04 am

EVENT NOT UNDONE BY HANK PYM’S DEATH

1 - Luke Cage's Origin and subsequent development as the greatest badass in Marvel history
User avatar

Lord Ice

Motherfucker from Hell

Postby Lord Ice » Fri May 03, 2013 10:17 am

So Bendis isn't ignorant of continuity, he just shits on it and ignores it.

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