The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[xaraan]

Because they're are like three dozen black superheroes in comics. Changing one to one of the thousands of white superheroes is a bigger deal proportionally.

you restated keb's point, and neither of you have really addressed mine.

I'm not disagreeing with that, but pointing out the hypocrisy, having a good reason to be hypocritical doesn't make it not hypocritical.

[habitual]

People that think this is happening because the studio wants to be PC couldn't be more wrong.

This is done to increase audience draw, it comes down to money, it's that simple.

Hab

[pastajoe]

It's good that you know black people. I just know people.

You're the one who brought up the stereotype that black people are angry. If you 'just know people', then how do you know the angry ones are black? And if your stereotype were true, would we really want an angry Johnny Storm? I think not.

[Keb]

I think you have most of a point, there isn't a lot I would disagree with about what your saying on the origins of minority characters.

But I still think any change would be an issue for people out there. It's hard for me to throw out any examples because I don't know every character (black or white) that's out there. Like I said, if they changed someone like Black Panther, it would be obviously a problem, but if there was a character that was just a dude who happened to be black (like you said about johnny being white) and his race was changed. Heads would be exploding.

Mostly I hear, women and minorities have been badly written by mostly white men for decades, so fuck it. Understandable, but doesn't make it not hypocritical.

But there isn't a character like that. As I stated before, the market for superheroes is north American males, the majority of which are white. White characters are the norm, the standard. They have been since forever. When you have a black character in a book and he or she is not a very minor character, that character is going to be black for a reason or two. His or her skin color defines who he or she is. It's unfortunate but that's how things are.

Okay here's an example, in the recent Omega the Unknown series by Jonathan Letham and Farel Dalrymple, the main girl in the series is black. If they decided to make her white, people probably wouldn't care because it's irrelevant. However, if they decided to make John Stewart or the falcon white, it would be a big deal. Why? Because take away John Stewart's blackness and he's just like any GL. Take away Falcon's blackness and he's just some hero who talks to birds. Being black is what makes audiences (both white and black) identify with them. Their skin color makes them unique. People probably don't want them to lose that uniqueness.

Sorry but that's just the way I see it.

I don't think it's right to define someone by the color of his or her skin. The only difference between my skin and your skin is that I don't get sunburnt. At the end of the day, we both have brown skin. Black and white are just states of being people put themselves into.

[Keb]

You're the one who brought up the stereotype that black people are angry. If you 'just know people', then how do you know the angry ones are black? And if your stereotype were true, would we really want an angry Johnny Storm? I think not.

Serious question: Are you an idiot?

[pastajoe]

Serious question: Are you an idiot?

See, that's the difference between us. I don't have to ask if you are, you've proven it with your comments.

[Keb]

See, that's the difference between us. I don't have to ask if you are, you've proven it with your comments.

Okay so you are an idiot. Good to know.

[xaraan]

But there isn't a character like that. As I stated before, the market for superheroes is north American males, the majority of which are white. White characters are the norm, the standard. They have been since forever. When you have a black character in a book and he or she is not a very minor character, that character is going to be black for a reason or two. His or her skin color defines who he or she is. It's unfortunate but that's how things are.

Okay here's an example, in the recent Omega the Unknown series by Jonathan Letham and Farel Dalrymple, the main girl in the series is black. If they decided to make her white, people probably wouldn't care because it's irrelevant. However, if they decided to make John Stewart or the falcon white, it would be a big deal. Why? Because take away John Stewart's blackness and he's just like any GL. Take away Falcon's blackness and he's just some hero who talks to birds. Being black is what makes audiences (both white and black) identify with them. Their skin color makes them unique. People probably don't want them to lose that uniqueness.

Sorry but that's just the way I see it.

I don't think it's right to define someone by the color of his or her skin. The only difference between my skin and your skin is that I don't get sunburnt. At the end of the day, we both have brown skin. Black and white are just states of being people put themselves into.

(First of all, I don't think the Jon Stewart GL thing was a great example on your part)

But, while I was away, it occurred to me that most of the Walking Dead characters aren't defined by their skin color: black, white or asian. But if the TV Show came on and Michonne was a white lady, tell me their wouldn't be a shitstorm.

As for the other, you can't argue race matters AND race doesn't matter. Otherwise, why care how many characters of one color vs. another their are, why not let a white guy play Black Panther, etc. In fact, your Stewart example... the only thing about him you seemed to say made him different was his skin color (unless you meant something else by 'blackness'). Fact is, it seems to matter to everyone, unless it's "just a white dude".

[pastajoe]

Okay so you are an idiot. Good to know.

It's sad that you have to resort to personal attacks because you lost the debate on the issue.

[Keb]

(First of all, I don't think the Jon Stewart GL thing was a great example on your part)

But, while I was away, it occurred to me that most of the Walking Dead characters aren't defined by their skin color: black, white or asian. But if the TV Show came on and Michonne was a white lady, tell me their wouldn't be a shitstorm.

As for the other, you can't argue race matters AND race doesn't matter. Otherwise, why care how many characters of one color vs. another their are, why not let a white guy play Black Panther, etc. Fact is, it seems to matter, unless it's "just a white dude".

I'm not arguing race does and doesn't matter. I'm pointing out the reasons why people make it matter and I'm saying that it shouldn't.

Not familiar with Michonne or the Walking Dead but I remember the internet outrage when that white girl cosplayed as her. Also, this: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/11/2 ... -TV-Series

Black Panther being a white adopted kid changes the dynamic of the character a lot. Much of his character is rooted in the history of the kings of Wakanda. You could put a white kid, hell any adopted kid in there, it would change the dynamic of it. It's kind of a cool angle if you work it a certain way but it makes the character different. It introduces levels of complexity that involve the royal family and leadership of the nationthat also alter who the character is. Genealogy and African descent matter to that character and define who he is. The falcon or gl John Stewart are different. They are defined by their blackness but should not be confined to it. I'd welcome the change. Others may not because others cling to that blackness to identify the uniqueness of the characters.

Same goes for Johnny Storm. He's American, right? Isn't America representative of the diversity of family structure? Can a white American family not adopt a black boy? It's happened in reality. And besides, black Americans are just Americans. Does being a "black" or "African" American make him any less of an American? Johnny Storm is American, no matter what color he is.

[Keb]

It's sad that you have to resort to personal attacks because you lost the debate on the issue.

What's next? "I am rubber, you are glue..."

Sorry but I find you incredibly close-minded and racist. I could try intelligent discourse with you but you've proven that you don't actually want to put any effort into it nor do you understand what I'm saying so why should I bother being respectful to you?

[S.F. Jude Terror]

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[Thunderstorm]

Keb, serious question. Wouldn't you rather see an existing Marvel character who is black get some exposure? An accurate character?

Instead of getting the reckless, hotheaded, womanizing character changed to black just to pander to a demographic.

I don't care nearly as much about this as Thor, but its still stupid. Just not AS stupid.

[nietoperz]

I'd be interested to see if Sue is also played by a black actor.

[pastajoe]

Sorry but I find you incredibly close-minded and racist. I could try intelligent discourse with you but you've proven that you don't actually want to put any effort into it nor do you understand what I'm saying so why should I bother being respectful to you?

Now I'm racist because I don't want a character changed from the way his creators intended. That's rich.

Local high school this year put on the musical, The Wiz. School happens to be predominantly white. Only one black girl tried out for Dorthy. The director chose a white girl because she was the most talented, and the black girl was offered another part.

The mother raised a big stink, contacted local news about it, had her daughter quit the show, tried to organize a boycott, and brought an NAACP rep to the school board meeting to complain. They argued that the school should have actively recruited more black participants. Nevermind that it was publicized at the school and had open auditions.

Although the original Wiz had a black girl as Dorthy who came from poor circumstances, why couldn't it be a poor white girl? Or do we stick with the original intent of the creators? There has to be some consistency.