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Doctor Who Thread

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Chris
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Re: Doctor Who Thread

Postby Chris » Sun May 19, 2013 5:31 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:
If one could be lost... could not more?

Plus, how could it be the Time War did not also change all timelines?


Sure, more could. But the Valeyard, specifically, was a known version of the Doctor and it was a future version.

I think if you get into the Time War changing shit all willy nilly, you start getting into lazy storytelling, because then you can just use the Time War as an excuse for literally anything you want.

Also, the Valeyard was evil. Hurt's Doctor, from what little we know, wasn't so much evil as he did what was necessary "for peace" or whatever it is that he said. But he crossed the line that the Doctor never crosses, thus, he didn't act in "the name of the Doctor"...


Here is a spoilery pic from the 50th set, showing Hurt in-costume...

[Reveal] Spoiler: Click to Expand
Image

Looks to me like he was "The Time War" Doctor.. seems like he's wearing both the 8th Doctor's clothes, and the 9th Doctor's leather jacket. So I can only assume whatever bad he did, was something during the Time War, that possibly led to its end and getting time-locked.

Which, as I said earlier, is why it'd be pretty insanely disappointing if Eccleston didn't return for this given the subject matter.
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Re: Doctor Who Thread

Postby The Old Doctor » Sun May 19, 2013 5:35 pm

Chris wrote:
Sure, more could. But the Valeyard, specifically, was a known version of the Doctor and it was a future version.

I think if you get into the Time War changing shit all willy nilly, you start getting into lazy storytelling, because then you can just use the Time War as an excuse for literally anything you want.

Also, the Valeyard was evil. Hurt's Doctor, from what little we know, wasn't so much evil as he did what was necessary "for peace" or whatever it is that he said. But he crossed the line that the Doctor never crosses, thus, he didn't act in "the name of the Doctor"...


Here is a spoilery pic from the 50th set, showing Hurt in-costume...

[Reveal] Spoiler: Click to Expand
Image

Looks to me like he was "The Time War" Doctor.. seems like he's wearing both the 8th Doctor's clothes, and the 9th Doctor's leather jacket. So I can only assume whatever bad he did, was something during the Time War, that possibly led to its end and getting time-locked.

Which, as I said earlier, is why it'd be pretty insanely disappointing if Eccleston didn't return for this given the subject matter.



All good points, but sometimes an act of evil is needed for what is needed. In this case multiple genocides. He might not be The Valeyard as we saw, but a new version.

Love that picture and what you've pointed out about it.

I wish McGann and Eccleston would cameo in it. The awesome of it would be... well awesome.
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols."
"Oh, the pointing again! They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?"
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""Timey" what? "Timey wimey"?"

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Re: Doctor Who Thread

Postby Chris » Sun May 19, 2013 5:43 pm

I will say that if it's true that Hurt is the 8.5th Doctor, and he came between McGann and Eccleston... that really puts the first season of the show into a whole new context.

We knew that Eccleston's Doctor was the one dealing with the fallout of the Time War from the get-go, and we knew he saw and did some shit, because his Doctor was always kind of sad.

But if this is true, then he'd be the one trying to figure out how to be "The Doctor" again after doing some horrible shit to end the war. Puts a new light on it all, really.
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Re: Doctor Who Thread

Postby David Bird » Sun May 19, 2013 5:43 pm

Here's a thought. Perhaps the new Doctor represents a regeneration from a timeline that was overwritten at some point. Timelines are being re-written all the time--no pun intended--so why not have a unwritten, or rewritten, Doctor? Hurt could be the original 9th regeneration and Eccleston a second 9th regeneration.

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Re: Doctor Who Thread

Postby David Bird » Sun May 19, 2013 5:45 pm

Chris wrote:I will say that if it's true that Hurt is the 8.5th Doctor, and he came between McGann and Eccleston... that really puts the first season of the show into a whole new context.

We knew that Eccleston's Doctor was the one dealing with the fallout of the Time War from the get-go, and we knew he saw and did some shit, because his Doctor was always kind of sad.

But if this is true, then he'd be the one trying to figure out how to be "The Doctor" again after doing some horrible shit to end the war. Puts a new light on it all, really.


I'm not sure why this is blacked out. There aren't any spoilers.

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Re: Doctor Who Thread

Postby Chris » Sun May 19, 2013 5:50 pm

Here is what The Sun (I know, I know) had to say about it:

[Reveal] Spoiler: Click to Expand
His character will be a regeneration of the Doctor which he has FORGOTTEN about.

It comes after Christopher Eccleston refused to return for the episode, despite meeting with Moffat a number of times to discuss his role.

A source explained to TV Biz: “John will play the real Ninth Doctor. Christopher Eccleston has always been thought of as the Ninth Doctor but now that John has been revealed as the Ninth Doctor, it shuffles Eccleston’s Doctor to be the Tenth Time Lord, Tennant the 11th and Smith the 12th.

“It also means the Doctor’s time is running out as he can only regenerate 12 times.


Keep in mind that their source is John Hurt himself, so in this case, I think The Sun's credibility can be trusted.
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Re: Doctor Who Thread

Postby Chris » Sun May 19, 2013 5:51 pm

David Bird wrote:
I'm not sure why this is blacked out. There aren't any spoilers.


Better to be safe than sorry.
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Re: Doctor Who Thread

Postby fieldy snuts » Sun May 19, 2013 5:58 pm

I've been thinking about where Ecclestones regeneration fits into this. We heard Tennants Doctor tell the Master he has no idea how bad it got in the Time War and how he had to end it and lock the timeline into place.what if Hurt's Doctor was doing whatever it takes in the war, regenerates into Ecclestone at one point and then that incarnation realised things went too far and proceeded to wipe out everyone involved to prevent things from going further south?

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Re: Doctor Who Thread

Postby David Bird » Sun May 19, 2013 6:07 pm

Yeah, something like that. Hurt's number 9 fights in the war, loses his moral compass, but in some way comes to realize it. He goes back somehow and starts the whole thing all over again, regenerating as Eccleston's number 9.

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Re: Doctor Who Thread

Postby Chris » Sun May 19, 2013 6:21 pm

I don't know if you really need to get so complicated as all that.

It doesn't need to be a re-writing time thing. You can get to the same end result by just saying Hurt did some terrible shit in the name of ending the war, and stopped going by the name of The Doctor in the process... then he died, and regenerated into Eccleston, who was so appalled by what he'd done that he basically disowned Hurt completely, and made his entire existence this big secret.. and lived with the shame of it, which is where we meet him in Season 1.

I don't think it needs to be this complex thing where Hurt was the 9th Doctor, but Ecclestone was the 9th Doctor as well, but then time was rewritten, and this and that... just make it that Eccleston was the 9th "Doctor" but the 10th incarnation of the character.

It's not as if he goes around calling himself the "11th Doctor" and stuff in-story. The numbering has always been more for the fans' than anything in-story. And in the finale, he even says that Hurt didn't hold the title of "Doctor".
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Re: Doctor Who Thread

Postby Chris » Sun May 19, 2013 6:27 pm

I don't think this will come into play at all, but in researching old Who I came upon this from the 7th Doctor's time... thought it interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(Doctor_Who)

The Other was intended to be part of the backstory of the television series during the Seventh Doctor's tenure and part of script editor Andrew Cartmel's intention now known to fans as the "Cartmel Masterplan" to restore some mystery to the character of the Doctor.[1] Cartmel felt that years of explanations about the Doctor's origins and the Time Lords had removed much of the mystery and strength of the character of the Doctor, and decided to make the Doctor "once again more than a mere chump of a Time Lord".[1] Elements of this effort were liberally scattered through Seasons 25 and 26 of the series, and occasionally included hints about the Doctor's past; for example, in Silver Nemesis, when Ace and the Doctor discuss the creation of validium, the Doctor mentions that it was created by Omega and Rassilon. Ace asks, "And...?" and the Doctor is silent. Cartmel has written that this was meant to indicate that the Doctor was "more than a Time Lord":


The Other was first explicitly mentioned in the novelisation of Remembrance of the Daleks by Ben Aaronovitch as a shadowy figure in Time Lord history, one of the founding Triumvirate of Time Lord society after the overthrow of the cult of the Pythia that had, until then, dominated Gallifrey.[2] The other two members of the Triumvirate were Rassilon and Omega.
Of the three, the Other's origins are the most obscure, with the circumstances of his birth and appearance being a mystery. Like Rassilon, various contradictory legends surround the Other, some hinting that he had powers surpassing that of Rassilon or Omega, and some even suggesting that he was not born on the Time Lords' home world of Gallifrey. Even his name is lost to time, which is why he is simply referred to as "the Other". A minor Gallifreyan festival known as Otherstide is celebrated yearly in his honour.[citation needed] This festival falls on the same days as the Doctor's name day.

When the Pythia was overthrown, she laid a final curse on Gallifrey that made the population sterile. To ensure the continuation of their race, Rassilon created the Looms, machines that would "weave" new Gallifreyans out of extant genetic material.

Omega apparently died creating the black hole which provided the raw power needed for time travel, turning the Gallifreyans into Lords of Time. (Some accounts suggest that Rassilon misled Omega into believing he would survive this mission.) Rassilon and the Other were left to pick up the pieces, with Rassilon harnessing the nucleus of the black hole to create the Eye of Harmony and becoming virtual dictator of Time Lord civilisation. As Rassilon's rule became more oppressive, the Other knew that his own days were numbered.

The Other first ensured that his granddaughter Susan (the last child to be naturally born on Gallifrey) was safe, sending her to the spaceport to get off the planet. Then, in a last gesture of defiance against Rassilon's rule, he committed suicide by throwing himself into the Looms, mixing his genetic material into the banks.

Eons passed, and the Looms became integrated into the great Houses of Gallifrey. Eventually, a new Cousin was born to the House of Lungbarrow, who would become known as the Doctor. Disenchanted with Time Lord society, the Doctor stole a TARDIS, intending to explore the universe. However, inside he discovered that the Hand of Omega, the stellar manipulator Omega had used to create the Eye of Harmony, had followed him on board, somehow recognising inside him one of its creators. Although time travel into Gallifrey's past was strictly forbidden, the Hand overrode the locks that prevented the TARDIS from doing so and took the Doctor back to the Old Time.

There, a year after the Other had vanished into the Looms, the Doctor found Susan wandering the streets of the city — she had never made it to the spaceport. Like the Hand, although the Doctor did not look anything like the Other, Susan recognised that there was a connection, and when she addressed him as "Grandfather", both of them knew that it was somehow right. The implication was that the Other had been genetically reincarnated as the Doctor, although how much of the Other is in the Doctor and how much he remembers of his past life, if at all, is unclear. Susan and the Doctor then left in the TARDIS to travel through time and space.
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Re: Doctor Who Thread

Postby fieldy snuts » Sun May 19, 2013 6:28 pm

What if Doctor Hurt actually started the Time War? Starting the war would be betraying the name of the Doctor. Doing it for "peace and sanity" could've been him deciding to bring the rest of the Time Lords into that war in order to eliminate the threats once and for all...that would be a pretty terrible secret.

Ending the Time War and destroying Gallifrey are not really secrets as we saw in the earlier secrets where everyone knew about that...

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Re: Doctor Who Thread

Postby PDH » Sun May 19, 2013 7:00 pm

Punchy wrote:
The 'power of love' is more interesting and easier to understand than some complex sci-fic mcguffin. It's more important to get across the emotions of the characters than to be clever for me.


Like Squid said, I don't see why you need any kind of McGuffin. It's the McGuffinrey to which I object, not the superficial trappings of it. You can convey all the emotions you like without having a stupid story. 99% of the time when people make this argument you can easily think of a way of telling exactly the same story with equal or greater emotional weight that doesn't also have a plot that turns on hand-wavy gibberish.

Squid is completely right about this. It's happening in more and more stories now - not just Who but most sci-fi/fantasy - and it's getting old.

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Re: Doctor Who Thread

Postby The Old Doctor » Sun May 19, 2013 7:00 pm

Chris wrote:I will say that if it's true that Hurt is the 8.5th Doctor, and he came between McGann and Eccleston... that really puts the first season of the show into a whole new context.

We knew that Eccleston's Doctor was the one dealing with the fallout of the Time War from the get-go, and we knew he saw and did some shit, because his Doctor was always kind of sad.

But if this is true, then he'd be the one trying to figure out how to be "The Doctor" again after doing some horrible shit to end the war. Puts a new light on it all, really.



True.
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols."
"Oh, the pointing again! They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?"
"Are you capable of speaking without flapping your hands about?"
""Timey" what? "Timey wimey"?"

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IvCNuB4 wrote:The Old Doctor is Cat-Scratch ?
Well that explains a lot :lol:

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Re: Doctor Who Thread

Postby The Old Doctor » Sun May 19, 2013 7:01 pm

David Bird wrote:Here's a thought. Perhaps the new Doctor represents a regeneration from a timeline that was overwritten at some point. Timelines are being re-written all the time--no pun intended--so why not have a unwritten, or rewritten, Doctor? Hurt could be the original 9th regeneration and Eccleston a second 9th regeneration.



That's what fans had for the Shalka Doctor. Given recent episodes... probably not so.
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols."
"Oh, the pointing again! They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?"
"Are you capable of speaking without flapping your hands about?"
""Timey" what? "Timey wimey"?"

Image
IvCNuB4 wrote:The Old Doctor is Cat-Scratch ?
Well that explains a lot :lol:

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