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Marvel's sliding continuity

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Juan Cena
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Re: Marvel's sliding continuity

Postby Juan Cena » Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:54 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:
Now please respond to the later point I made.

Plus, note that only a few Fawcett or Quality were also connected to fighting the Nazis or Fascists of the Japanese, but was later included.
No Timely did not. It was about the same for all. The fact was though, that the surge in numbers had to do with having stories of them all fighting against Nazis or the Japanese.


Numbers of heroes or sales?

I'm pretty sure most of the most notable GA heroes were created before the war/the US entered the war, and had origin stories not connected to fighting the Axis powers. Most of them were created to cash in on Superman's popularity.
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"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"
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Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."


http://www.shirtswithrandomtriangles.com/

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Re: Marvel's sliding continuity

Postby The Old Doctor » Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:10 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
Numbers of heroes or sales?

I'm pretty sure most of the most notable GA heroes were created before the war/the US entered the war, and had origin stories not connected to fighting the Axis powers. Most of them were created to cash in on Superman's popularity.


Still not responding to the point of them being intrinsically linked to that era beyond just the war.

Most actual came just after the war started and got hotter in 1941. Most were actually created to fill pages of comics with something other than war, horror, comedy and detective stories. Others were specifically created to propagandize against the Nazis. Timely did this and it has been well documented. Captain America was a war inspired character.

Try taking any character and move them to an era you mentioned, the 70s. How do they remain the same and work? The Alan Scott GL with that look? Phantom Lady? Starman? Dr Fate... how do you move that character and the origin to the '70s? Really does not work with most of them. They were all a product of their era no differently than the Image characters of the 90s. Few translate over. So leave the JSA to the past.
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols."
"Oh, the pointing again! They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?"
"Are you capable of speaking without flapping your hands about?"
""Timey" what? "Timey wimey"?"

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IvCNuB4 wrote:The Old Doctor is Cat-Scratch ?
Well that explains a lot :lol:

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Re: Marvel's sliding continuity

Postby Arion » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:43 pm

IvCNuB4 wrote:Nieto is more of a hot daddy :groucho:


As long as he isn't a sugar daddy...

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Re: Marvel's sliding continuity

Postby Juan Cena » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:41 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:
Still not responding to the point of them being intrinsically linked to that era beyond just the war.

Most actual came just after the war started and got hotter in 1941. Most were actually created to fill pages of comics with something other than war, horror, comedy and detective stories. Others were specifically created to propagandize against the Nazis. Timely did this and it has been well documented. Captain America was a war inspired character.

Try taking any character and move them to an era you mentioned, the 70s. How do they remain the same and work? The Alan Scott GL with that look? Phantom Lady? Starman? Dr Fate... how do you move that character and the origin to the '70s? Really does not work with most of them. They were all a product of their era no differently than the Image characters of the 90s. Few translate over. So leave the JSA to the past.


But the majority of the GA heroes (and the JSA in particular) didn't have written origins that were deeply connected to the War. It would be easy to set their origins 25-30 years in the past (which would actually put them in the Reagan era, not the 70's.) Alan Scott could still be a train engineer who gets his ring after a train accident. Kent Nelson could still be an archeologist's son transformed into Dr. Fate by Nabu. Jay Garrick can still inhale heavy water fumes. Those facts don't need changing.

Phanthom Lady and Starman never had origin stories until a)Sandra Knight was given one in Freedom Fighters, and b)Roy Thomas gave Ted Knight one in All-Star Squadron. Neither as I recall were war-related.

And outside of maybe Starman, I don't see that many problems with any of the character's look you mention not being able to work 30 years ago. This is the 80's we're talking about here, y'know (at least for now). Fashion took an acid trip that decade, remember? :wink:
Image

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"
- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."


http://www.shirtswithrandomtriangles.com/

Check out Christmas in Nacirema
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh619160960893481469&shareImp=true#!/stations/play/619160960893481469

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Re: Marvel's sliding continuity

Postby Arion » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:17 pm

Jay Garrick inhaling stuff? Won't somebody please think of the children!?

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Re: Marvel's sliding continuity

Postby Juan Cena » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:35 pm

Arion wrote:Jay Garrick inhaling stuff? Won't somebody please think of the children!?


It was an accident!
Image

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"
- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."


http://www.shirtswithrandomtriangles.com/

Check out Christmas in Nacirema
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh619160960893481469&shareImp=true#!/stations/play/619160960893481469

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Re: Marvel's sliding continuity

Postby The Old Doctor » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:16 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
But the majority of the GA heroes (and the JSA in particular) didn't have written origins that were deeply connected to the War. It would be easy to set their origins 25-30 years in the past (which would actually put them in the Reagan era, not the 70's.) Alan Scott could still be a train engineer who gets his ring after a train accident. Kent Nelson could still be an archeologist's son transformed into Dr. Fate by Nabu. Jay Garrick can still inhale heavy water fumes. Those facts don't need changing.

Phanthom Lady and Starman never had origin stories until a)Sandra Knight was given one in Freedom Fighters, and b)Roy Thomas gave Ted Knight one in All-Star Squadron. Neither as I recall were war-related.

And outside of maybe Starman, I don't see that many problems with any of the character's look you mention not being able to work 30 years ago. This is the 80's we're talking about here, y'know (at least for now). Fashion took an acid trip that decade, remember? :wink:


You really are being obtuse here.

Uh, try again, Sandra had it in the first story as did Starman. Again both are set in that era, one that I have pointed out repeatedly has more to do with other than the war.

They are not that workable for that era and as it is, why bother when there are a ton of characters from that era that would work far better then the anachronism you trying to make. You basically are trying to get a 52 Earth 2 with just the names and a little bit of the cosmetics.
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols."
"Oh, the pointing again! They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?"
"Are you capable of speaking without flapping your hands about?"
""Timey" what? "Timey wimey"?"

Image
IvCNuB4 wrote:The Old Doctor is Cat-Scratch ?
Well that explains a lot :lol:

BubbaKanoosh wrote:Old Doctor is the NuDCU's Catscratch

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Re: Marvel's sliding continuity

Postby The Old Doctor » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:17 pm

Arion wrote:Jay Garrick inhaling stuff? Won't somebody please think of the children!?


He was smoking too. Had a bottle of booze...
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols."
"Oh, the pointing again! They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?"
"Are you capable of speaking without flapping your hands about?"
""Timey" what? "Timey wimey"?"

Image
IvCNuB4 wrote:The Old Doctor is Cat-Scratch ?
Well that explains a lot :lol:

BubbaKanoosh wrote:Old Doctor is the NuDCU's Catscratch

The Old Doctor
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Re: Marvel's sliding continuity

Postby The Old Doctor » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:17 pm

Smallvilling the JSA is not a good idea.
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols."
"Oh, the pointing again! They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?"
"Are you capable of speaking without flapping your hands about?"
""Timey" what? "Timey wimey"?"

Image
IvCNuB4 wrote:The Old Doctor is Cat-Scratch ?
Well that explains a lot :lol:

BubbaKanoosh wrote:Old Doctor is the NuDCU's Catscratch

Juan Cena
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Re: Marvel's sliding continuity

Postby Juan Cena » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:57 am

Cat-Scratch wrote:
You really are being obtuse here.

Uh, try again, Sandra had it in the first story as did Starman. Again both are set in that era, one that I have pointed out repeatedly has more to do with other than the war.

.


From Comic Vine

Phantom Lady first appeared in Quality's Police Comics #1 (August 1941), an anthology title; this issue also included the debut of fellow Golden Age characters Plastic Man, Firebrand, and Human Bomb (all of whom later became DC characters). Though Quality's writers never gave Phantom Lady a proper origin story, they established her alter ego as Sandra Knight, the beautiful debutante daughter of U.S. Senator Henry Knight. She was engaged to a government agent named Donald Borden, who sometimes assisted in her crime-fighting exploits. As Phantom Lady, Sandra's costume was essentially a one-piece yellow swimsuit with a green cape, and her primary weapon was a "black light ray projector," which she used to blind her enemies and make herself invisible. Quality published Phantom Lady stories for 23 issues before the character was picked up by Fox Feature Syndicate in the late 1940's.


I was pretty sure Starman was never provided with an actual origin story in the GA, and didn't have one until Roy Thomas gave him one in All- Star Squadron.

They are not that workable for that era and as it is, why bother when there are a ton of characters from that era that would work far better then the anachronism you trying to make. You basically are trying to get a 52 Earth 2 with just the names and a little bit of the cosmetics.




First, you haven't given any evidence of an origin story so deeply ingrained in the 30's or 40's that it couldn't be updated to fit into a more slidable continuity. (The JSA's origin notwithstanding). I doubt that there's are a lot origin stories that couldn't be updated to where the essentials of the original story remain intact without the connections to a fixed historical era or event.

I haven't read Earth 2, so I'm not going to get into an argument there. I do know that what I'm suggesting is not as radical as some of the things Robinson has apparently done there.
Image

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"
- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."


http://www.shirtswithrandomtriangles.com/

Check out Christmas in Nacirema
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh619160960893481469&shareImp=true#!/stations/play/619160960893481469

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Re: Marvel's sliding continuity

Postby Juan Cena » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:01 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:Smallvilling the JSA is not a good idea.


Why not? A JSA that worked in the shadows as opposed to in the public eye would be a logical if you wanted a DCU where there weren't out-in-the-open before Superman.
Image

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"
- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."


http://www.shirtswithrandomtriangles.com/

Check out Christmas in Nacirema
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh619160960893481469&shareImp=true#!/stations/play/619160960893481469

The Old Doctor
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Re: Marvel's sliding continuity

Postby The Old Doctor » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:20 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
From Comic Vine



I was pretty sure Starman was never provided with an actual origin story in the GA, and didn't have one until Roy Thomas gave him one in All- Star Squadron.





First, you haven't given any evidence of an origin story so deeply ingrained in the 30's or 40's that it couldn't be updated to fit into a more slidable continuity. (The JSA's origin notwithstanding). I doubt that there's are a lot origin stories that couldn't be updated to where the essentials of the original story remain intact without the connections to a fixed historical era or event.

I haven't read Earth 2, so I'm not going to get into an argument there. I do know that what I'm suggesting is not as radical as some of the things Robinson has apparently done there.


Not e the qualifier used - PROPER. Go look up Starman's first story, the origin is there. All Roy Thomas did was expand and embellish on the origins such as linking the two as cousins. You are still not responding to the question I asked a while back now. You continue to focus only on the origins and yet ignore all the factors involved in those characters and the factors that went into the origins.

Herald would be proud and so would many a politician. You keep trying to dodge the fact that the characters are tied to the era that they are made. It's intrinsic in the make up of all.

You want them moved so they can be mentors? Use characters that are of the era you want to use, instead of creating an anachronistic bunch as Smallville did.
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols."
"Oh, the pointing again! They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?"
"Are you capable of speaking without flapping your hands about?"
""Timey" what? "Timey wimey"?"

Image
IvCNuB4 wrote:The Old Doctor is Cat-Scratch ?
Well that explains a lot :lol:

BubbaKanoosh wrote:Old Doctor is the NuDCU's Catscratch

The Old Doctor
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Re: Marvel's sliding continuity

Postby The Old Doctor » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:27 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
Why not? A JSA that worked in the shadows as opposed to in the public eye would be a logical if you wanted a DCU where there weren't out-in-the-open before Superman.


It wasn't logical as to work from the shadows while wearing bright colours... no it does not work. The JSA works only if they began in the actual era that they did. Unlike Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman.... all of whom were retweeked for the era they were in with re told and altered origins, motives, etc. ... the JSA did not have this so they really do not work. Legacies would work as they build on the original, yet what you want is basically pulling a 52 Earth 2 - using the names, sort of the concepts and a little bit of the cosmetics of the characters. Yet this was done in the late 50s and early 60s when Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, Ray Palmer all came along. There's no point.

Under the logic you keep trying to push, The Lone Ranger, Scarlet Pimpernel,Robin Hood and Zorro would all work today and any period. They don't.

You keep tweeking the character for today or the era you want them in, it becomes forced not to mention so altered, that there really is no point. Just make a new character or else... legacy from the classic.
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols."
"Oh, the pointing again! They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?"
"Are you capable of speaking without flapping your hands about?"
""Timey" what? "Timey wimey"?"

Image
IvCNuB4 wrote:The Old Doctor is Cat-Scratch ?
Well that explains a lot :lol:

BubbaKanoosh wrote:Old Doctor is the NuDCU's Catscratch

Juan Cena
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Re: Marvel's sliding continuity

Postby Juan Cena » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:43 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:
Not e the qualifier used - PROPER. Go look up Starman's first story, the origin is there. All Roy Thomas did was expand and embellish on the origins such as linking the two as cousins. You are still not responding to the question I asked a while back now. You continue to focus only on the origins and yet ignore all the factors involved in those characters and the factors that went into the origins.

Herald would be proud and so would many a politician. You keep trying to dodge the fact that the characters are tied to the era that they are made. It's intrinsic in the make up of all.



Exactly which part of Starman's origin prominently depends on events of the 40's? That's the point you're avoiding.


You want them moved so they can be mentors? Use characters that are of the era you want to use, instead of creating an anachronistic bunch as Smallville did.


And you're missing the point. This isn't about transporting the JSA into another era. It's placing them in a sliding timeline that constantly begins at a point twenty years or so from the Modern DCU's present. It actually restores the equilibrium that existed when the JSA first began appearing in the Silver Age, when the JSA began their careers about 25 years before Barry Allen and Hal Jordan appeared.
Image

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"
- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."


http://www.shirtswithrandomtriangles.com/

Check out Christmas in Nacirema
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh619160960893481469&shareImp=true#!/stations/play/619160960893481469

Juan Cena
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Title: The Lyrical Peyton Manning


Re: Marvel's sliding continuity

Postby Juan Cena » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:03 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:
It wasn't logical as to work from the shadows while wearing bright colours... no it does not work. The JSA works only if they began in the actual era that they did. Unlike Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman.... all of whom were retweeked for the era they were in with re told and altered origins, motives, etc. ... the JSA did not have this so they really do not work. Legacies would work as they build on the original, yet what you want is basically pulling a 52 Earth 2 - using the names, sort of the concepts and a little bit of the cosmetics of the characters. Yet this was done in the late 50s and early 60s when Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, Ray Palmer all came along. There's no point.

Under the logic you keep trying to push, The Lone Ranger, Scarlet Pimpernel,Robin Hood and Zorro would all work today and any period. They don't.

You keep tweeking the character for today or the era you want them in, it becomes forced not to mention so altered, that there really is no point. Just make a new character or else... legacy from the classic.


Maybe "shadows" wasn't the right word, but fighting crime outside of the limelight, being trye "Mystery-Men" where they were more urban legend is what I'm talking about. That's the only thing that would need tweaking if DC didn't want them to be the first out-in-public superheroes.

The essentials of Superman and Batman's origins haven't changed, though. Supes is still the survivor of a planet that exploded. Batman still witnessed his parents getting murdered. Diana's may have been the most altered of the three, but unless I missed it, she still came to Man's World after saving Steve Trevor's life.
Image

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"
- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."


http://www.shirtswithrandomtriangles.com/

Check out Christmas in Nacirema
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh619160960893481469&shareImp=true#!/stations/play/619160960893481469

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