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Marvel's sliding continuity

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The Old Doctor

Postby The Old Doctor » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:44 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
Exactly which part of Starman's origin prominently depends on events of the 40's? That's the point you're avoiding.




And you're missing the point. This isn't about transporting the JSA into another era. It's placing them in a sliding timeline that constantly begins at a point twenty years or so from the Modern DCU's present. It actually restores the equilibrium that existed when the JSA first began appearing in the Silver Age, when the JSA began their careers about 25 years before Barry Allen and Hal Jordan appeared.


The character was made in the 1940s and as such has an intrinsic connection to that era. His motivations were stated and even the styles used for him. The trappings scream of the era, not the 80s. You endlessly refuse to see this and as such are avoiding it as it takes down your argument.

That is not a sliding timeline, it's moving them. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are three DC examples of sliding timelines. They never stopped being published and were always re-iterated for the era they were in. The JSA have not and would not be. Given the thread here being on Marvel, in comparison it's no different then with Superman and crew. You cannot move characters from the 1940s to the 1980s and then call it a sliding timeline. For it to be one, it would be from the 40s to now with the backgrounds rebuilt up. The big difference is that with Marvel, most of the characters are still more contemporary than the JSA. What you're saying does not work, it does not bring any sort of equilibrium, it creates an anachronism.

As said, you want the modern heroes to have mentors? Use character from the era you site instead of moving the originals. Also, what you get is a weakened modern version. Either leave the JSA in the 40s and go multigenerational as Byrne did with Generations, sans the apocryphal stories, and build it to there. Otherwise leave it as is now.

The Old Doctor

Postby The Old Doctor » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:48 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
Maybe "shadows" wasn't the right word, but fighting crime outside of the limelight, being trye "Mystery-Men" where they were more urban legend is what I'm talking about. That's the only thing that would need tweaking if DC didn't want them to be the first out-in-public superheroes.

The essentials of Superman and Batman's origins haven't changed, though. Supes is still the survivor of a planet that exploded. Batman still witnessed his parents getting murdered. Diana's may have been the most altered of the three, but unless I missed it, she still came to Man's World after saving Steve Trevor's life.


You're citing characters that have been continually published since the 40s and had themselves repeatedly tweeked to fit the era they were in at the time. The rest were not. Few could ever really be moved forward as you want. They just would not work.

As for urban legends... they could be just that, myths and not at all real yet inspire the modern characters. As it is, why have this unless you want basically legacy characters, both direct or indirect.
User avatar

Juan Cena

DANG!

Postby Juan Cena » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:49 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:
The character was made in the 1940s and as such has an intrinsic connection to that era. His motivations were stated and even the styles used for him. The trappings scream of the era, not the 80s. You endlessly refuse to see this and as such are avoiding it as it takes down your argument.


Considering some of the absurdities of 80's fashion, Starman's costume wouldn't be too much of a problem. :lol: The fin could probably be explained away as somehow.


That is not a sliding timeline, it's moving them. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are three DC examples of sliding timelines. They never stopped being published and were always re-iterated for the era they were in. The JSA have not and would not be. Given the thread here being on Marvel, in comparison it's no different then with Superman and crew. You cannot move characters from the 1940s to the 1980s and then call it a sliding timeline. For it to be one, it would be from the 40s to now with the backgrounds rebuilt up. The big difference is that with Marvel, most of the characters are still more contemporary than the JSA. What you're saying does not work, it does not bring any sort of equilibrium, it creates an anachronism.


Will you please stop being hooked on the 80's? I'm talking about placing the JSA's starting point in a period of time 20-30 years from the JLA's ever-present "now". The particular decade doesn't matter that way, at it will always be 30 years from the "present."

The JSA exist in normal time. The JLA exists in sliding time. The JSA were founded in 1940, the JLA was founded (let's say) 5-10 years from an ever-present now. The JSA ages normally (juryrigged things like slowed metabolisms and limbo notwithstanding). The JLA doesn't age.

The absurdity of this just gets worse as time goes on, if you wanted the two teams interacting with each other on a regular basis.



As said, you want the modern heroes to have mentors? Use character from the era you site instead of moving the originals. Also, what you get is a weakened modern version. Either leave the JSA in the 40s and go multigenerational as Byrne did with Generations, sans the apocryphal stories, and build it to there. Otherwise leave it as is now.


Why is it weakened? The JSA would be strengthened by living "outside" of time like the JLA does. They woudn't be getting older and older like they are now.
User avatar

Juan Cena

DANG!

Postby Juan Cena » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:11 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:
You're citing characters that have been continually published since the 40s and had themselves repeatedly tweeked to fit the era they were in at the time. The rest were not. Few could ever really be moved forward as you want. They just would not work.


And there's the problem. You have one set of characters stuck in normal time, and one set that isn't. This can't go on forever without more and more elaborate explanations to explain the discrepancies away.

As for urban legends... they could be just that, myths and not at all real yet inspire the modern characters. As it is, why have this unless you want basically legacy characters, both direct or indirect.


I would hope that there's more to the JSA than just being "legacy" characters.

The Old Doctor

Postby The Old Doctor » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:22 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
Considering some of the absurdities of 80's fashion, Starman's costume wouldn't be too much of a problem. :lol: The fin could probably be explained away as somehow.




Will you please stop being hooked on the 80's? I'm talking about placing the JSA's starting point in a period of time 20-30 years from the JLA's ever-present "now". The particular decade doesn't matter that way, at it will always be 30 years from the "present."

The JSA exist in normal time. The JLA exists in sliding time. The JSA were founded in 1940, the JLA was founded (let's say) 5-10 years from an ever-present now. The JSA ages normally (juryrigged things like slowed metabolisms and limbo notwithstanding). The JLA doesn't age.

The absurdity of this just gets worse as time goes on, if you wanted the two teams interacting with each other on a regular basis.





Why is it weakened? The JSA would be strengthened by living "outside" of time like the JLA does. They woudn't be getting older and older like they are now.


Considering how none were used at the time, you're still wrong.

Will you learn math and just when Reagan, whom you invoked, was President? 20 to 30 years ago was what? THE 1980S!. :roll:
Again, the JLA have been published continuously since they began, the JSA has not been.
You want them interacting on a regular basis, it's been answered already, it's called time travel.

You're being obtuse again, the JLA would be weakened and it was obvious that that was what I said. :smt011

The Old Doctor

Postby The Old Doctor » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:25 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
And there's the problem. You have one set of characters stuck in normal time, and one set that isn't. This can't go on forever without more and more elaborate explanations to explain the discrepancies away.



I would hope that there's more to the JSA than just being "legacy" characters.


Worked before. Pre-COIE and Post-COIE. There is no problem. You want them all to stay the same relatively, yet still have some sort of progress? Again, time travel meetings. Works.

Hope all you want, it won't change the reality of the concept.
User avatar

Juan Cena

DANG!

Postby Juan Cena » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:46 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:
Considering how none were used at the time, you're still wrong.

Will you learn math and just when Reagan, whom you invoked, was President? 20 to 30 years ago was what? THE 1980S!. :roll:


It's not the date that matters. Yes, for stories written now, the thirty-year point technically would be in the 80. But for stories written ten years from now, the 30-yr point would be in the 90's.

The point in the past moves along with the ever-present "now." Just like Superman rocketing as a baby from Krypton happened a certain point of time before the present.

Again, the JLA have been published continuously since they began, the JSA has not been.
You want them interacting on a regular basis, it's been answered already, it's called time travel.


Time travel just makes things more complicated, not less complicated. I'm not too crazy about every JLA/JSA story having to deal with stuff like time paradox, etc)
User avatar

Juan Cena

DANG!

Postby Juan Cena » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:50 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
It's not the date that matters. Yes, for stories written now, the thirty-year point technically would be in the 80. But for stories written ten years from now, the 30-yr point would be in the 90's.

The point in the past moves along with the ever-present "now." Just like Superman rocketing as a baby from Krypton happened a certain point of time before the present.



Time travel just makes things more complicated, not less complicated. I'm not too crazy about every JLA/JSA story having to deal with stuff like time paradox, etc)


You're being obtuse again, the JLA would be weakened and it was obvious that that was what I said. :smt011


How the the JLA get weakened if the JSA is in their 50's instead of their 80's and getting older and older.
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Juan Cena

DANG!

Postby Juan Cena » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:56 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:
Worked before. Pre-COIE and Post-COIE. There is no problem. You want them all to stay the same relatively, yet still have some sort of progress? Again, time travel meetings. Works.

Hope all you want, it won't change the reality of the concept.


There wasn't a problem Pre-Crisis, when the JSAers were in only about 30 years older than the JLAers.That's not counting the revelations about the JSAin All-Star Squadron Annual #2. The WWII era wasn't as distant in the past as it is now, or will be in the future. The problem is more going forward.

The Old Doctor

Postby The Old Doctor » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:05 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
There wasn't a problem Pre-Crisis, when the JSAers were in only about 30 years older than the JLAers.That's not counting the revelations about the JSAin All-Star Squadron Annual #2. The WWII era wasn't as distant in the past as it is now, or will be in the future. The problem is more going forward.


40 year difference as of 1981. That annual hit in 1984.

Still failing in your argument.

The Old Doctor

Postby The Old Doctor » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:07 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
You're being obtuse again, the JLA would be weakened and it was obvious that that was what I said. \":smt011\"


How the the JLA get weakened if the JSA is in their 50's instead of their 80's and getting older and older.


:smt102

You still have no proof of your point.
User avatar

Juan Cena

DANG!

Postby Juan Cena » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:21 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:
40 year difference as of 1981. That annual hit in 1984.

Still failing in your argument.



It was annual 3 instead of annual one. My bad.

It's still 40 years in the past back then as opposed to being about 72 years as it is now.
User avatar

Juan Cena

DANG!

Postby Juan Cena » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:24 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:
:smt102

You still have no proof of your point.


Fixed. :roll:

The Old Doctor

Postby The Old Doctor » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:28 pm

Juan Cena wrote:

It was annual 3 instead of annual one. My bad.

It's still 40 years in the past back then as opposed to being about 72 years as it is now.


Oy vey. :roll:
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Arion

Twenty-Something

Postby Arion » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:28 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:
He was smoking too. Had a bottle of booze...


That's a bad example for the kids.

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