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[BubbaKanoosh]

I figured that it was just a repeat of the New Avenger scene but that's not really my point. They blew up one Earth, what's to stop them from blowing up another? Further more, why is it ok for them to make these decisions but condemn somebody else for making similar decisions? They can create and possess the technology to destroy an entire planet and then use it which is sure to draw the attention of forces we can't comprehend, yet Scott Summers wants to harness the energy of a cosmic entity to save his people and he's the jackass?

What makes Tony Stark or Hank McCoy's judgement more infallible than Scott Summers?

That pretty much what Cap was saying..

[habitual]

Unless he was looking for the gems, figured out the Time Gem wasn't destroyed, and knew of some connection to it or the other Gems to the Inhumans, which was buried deep in Black Bolt's mind (maybe in some kind of Inhuman race memory, perhaps?) that would help him recover it.

Thanos probably knows more about the Infinity Gems than a good 99.99% of the universe. There's got to be a connection somewhere. This mini ain't called "Infinity" for nothing, y'know.

It was pretty clear the gems were only of secondary concern, it was more something about the Inhuman past.

As far as the incursions go, my money is on Doom to deal with that.

Hab

[Chris]

I figured that it was just a repeat of the New Avenger scene but that's not really my point. They blew up one Earth, what's to stop them from blowing up another? Further more, why is it ok for them to make these decisions but condemn somebody else for making similar decisions? They can create and possess the technology to destroy an entire planet and then use it which is sure to draw the attention of forces we can't comprehend, yet Scott Summers wants to harness the energy of a cosmic entity to save his people and he's the jackass?

What makes Tony Stark or Hank McCoy's judgement more infallible than Scott Summers?

Well, not to reopen old wounds yet again...

But it's apples and oranges. It's ok for them to make these decisions because there is no alternative. It's do what they did, or the entire planet is a goner. This is not at all a similar scenario to Scott taking it upon himself to do what he did in AvX. Scott Summers wanted to harness the energy of a cosmic entity which had a history of completely razing entire civilizations and planets, and starting things over (and also corrupting its' hosts)... brilliant idea. Moreover, he was making a unilateral decision for the entire planet in order to save a small percentage of people (and turning it into a police state in the process) which is, again, different from the Illuminati trying to save everybody.

But regardless, they're not meant to be portrayed as being in the right. It's been a point in the book that what they're doing is pretty terrible, but necessary.

[S.F. Jude Terror]

The Avengers are villains. Have been since Tony was the villain in civil war. They're fascist, totalitarian, hypocritical, and sanctimonious.

For some reason, these qualities are justified and admired by most readers, saying "they have no choice." Their actions are rarely heroic in these events. They're pragmatic.

These are not the heroes we need, but they're the ones we deserve.

[Chris]

You are so predictable.

[thefourthman]

It's not untrue though.

[Chris]

I welcome stories which treat situations in a more realistic and logical way. Comic book writing is evolving for the better. It has happened throughout their existence. I consider these comics today to be better written (overall, not on an individual basis, mind you) than they have ever been before.

If you want nothing but happy endings and generic "hero saves the day" stories where you never have to worry about anything because you know the good guy will save everybody and drink his milk and take his vitamins and give a nice big thumbs up to the reader, maybe superhero comics are no longer for you.

I'm sure people who grew up reading comics in the 50's felt the same way at some point as comics evolved.

[Grayson]

Well, not to reopen old wounds yet again...

But it's apples and oranges. It's ok for them to make these decisions because there is no alternative. It's do what they did, or the entire planet is a goner. This is not at all a similar scenario to Scott taking it upon himself to do what he did in AvX. Scott Summers wanted to harness the energy of a cosmic entity which had a history of completely razing entire civilizations and planets, and starting things over (and also corrupting its' hosts)... brilliant idea. Moreover, he was making a unilateral decision for the entire planet in order to save a small percentage of people (and turning it into a police state in the process) which is, again, different from the Illuminati trying to save everybody.

But regardless, they're not meant to be portrayed as being in the right. It's been a point in the book that what they're doing is pretty terrible, but necessary.

There is no alternative to what the Illuminati are doing because they, like Scott Summers, are not sitting around waiting to ask somebody else for help. They saw a problem and they assumed that they knew what was best for everybody else. Eventually one of these alternate universes are going to notice that their Earth has gone missing. More than likely somebody is going to come looking for answers. If they went to somebody else and asked for help, maybe they would have come up with a better solution.

It's time for the Marvel Universe to forgive Scott Summers. He was right after all.

[Juan Cena]

Every issue of Infinity will introduce 5 new plot points, and none of them will be addressed until the final issue where he brings it all together in one epic swoop, because Hickman.

And it will still be better than anything Johns has done since 2005.

[Chris]

There is no alternative to what the Illuminati are doing because they, like Scott Summers, are not sitting around waiting to ask somebody else for help. They saw a problem and they assumed that they knew what was best for everybody else. Eventually one of these alternate universes are going to notice that their Earth has gone missing. More than likely somebody is going to come looking for answers. If they went to somebody else and asked for help, maybe they would have come up with a better solution.

What if there is no better solution? You've got the smartest minds in the MU together here, and they've come up with no better solution. Meanwhile, there's not exactly all the time in the world to drink martinis, kickback and relax and brainstorm with everybody. They're on a countdown with every incursion.

It's time for the Marvel Universe to forgive Scott Summers. He was right after all.

No, he wasn't. Events only played out like they did because the Avengers got involved, and if they had never trained Hope to prepare her for it, it would have been a disaster. This was pointed out in the actual event itself, but Cyclops-defenders want to just forget about this everytime.

The event was written for there to be a defensible position for either side, so this debate will never end. But it was also written in a way that Cyclops original plan was simply not going to work. It was all dependent on information from the future, which was all dependent on the Avengers being involved the way they were... which Cyke didn't know about beforehand. So he wanted to just throw Hope out there and cross his fingers and pray it'd work. But that's not how events ever would have played out. The Avengers role in it was set from day one, and the only reason Hope was "the mutant messiah" was because of the training and guidance she received from them.

It's all cyclical.

[SuperginraiX]

If you want nothing but happy endings and generic "hero saves the day" stories where you never have to worry about anything because you know the good guy will save everybody and drink his milk and take his vitamins and give a nice big thumbs up to the reader, maybe superhero comics are no longer for you.

Wow.

[Grayson]

What if there is no better solution? You've got the smartest minds in the MU together here, and they've come up with no better solution. Meanwhile, there's not exactly all the time in the world to drink martinis, kickback and relax and brainstorm with everybody. They're on a countdown with every incursion.

Fact: There is always a better solution.

Besides, they just started taking Black Swan's word for everything. For all we know, she could be tricking the Illuminati into making things worse. The Illuminati are putting the world in just as much danger as Scott did during AvX if not more. I don't remember the Phoenix being capable of killing the Living Tribunal. However, instead of being locked up without due process and branded terrorists, they will be lauded as heroes when all is said and done.

No, he wasn't. Events only played out like they did because the Avengers got involved, and if they had never trained Hope to prepare her for it, it would have been a disaster. This was pointed out in the actual event itself, but Cyclops-defenders want to just forget about this everytime.

The event was written for there to be a defensible position for either side, so this debate will never end. But it was also written in a way that Cyclops original plan was simply not going to work. It was all dependent on information from the future, which was all dependent on the Avengers being involved the way they were... which Cyke didn't know about beforehand. So he wanted to just throw Hope out there and cross his fingers and pray it'd work. But that's not how events ever would have played out. The Avengers role in it was set from day one, and the only reason Hope was "the mutant messiah" was because of the training and guidance she received from them.

It's all cyclical.

Come on Chris! Tony Stark himself admitted the Scott was right!

The Avengers should have offered to help first, instead of going to Utopia and making demands. AvX didn't need to happen. It happened because the Avengers decided that they knew what was best. If it wasn't for them, the Phoenix never would have broken into 5 pieces, Scott Summers never would have been possessed by it, and Charles Xavier would still be alive.

[Chris]

If it wasn't for them Hope would have lost control and been just as corrupted by it as Cyke was.

[Juan Cena]

It was pretty clear the gems were only of secondary concern, it was more something about the Inhuman past.

As far as the incursions go, my money is on Doom to deal with that.

Hab

The Outrider seemed to be concerned they didn't exist anymore, though.

Hard to say that the gems are ever a "secondary concern" to Thanos. They're like the Anti-Life Equation is to Darkseid.

A further Inhuman connection to the Gems in the past beyond Black Bolt wouldn't be out of the question.

[S.F. Jude Terror]

The entire concept of the illuminati should be repulsive to people. "You've got the smartest minds in the Marvel Universe there..." You say. And you imply that therefore they know what is best not just for the Earth but for the entire universe? They should consult no one else? They should make this decision for everyone behind everyone's back? Sounds like clear cut well intentioned fascist villainy to me. It seems painfully obvious, and I would expect this incredible hubris to have tragic consequences as it has throughout the entire history of fiction if not for the fact that all of the Avengers have been acting more or less like this for a decade now and are never accountable for it. I find it genuinely puzzling, because if the last ten years of Avengers dickery ended in a massive fall from grace (and maybe Hickman is planning just that) then I would say it was good writing indeed. But comments like yours that actually support what these guys are doing, killing Earths, worry me.