The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

by Punchy » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:12 pm

by Cas » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:23 pm

by chap22 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:42 pm

A.R.P. wrote:This isn't the Silver Surfers fist foray into a DD comic:
http://themattmurdockchronicles.blogspo ... l-282.html

Although the last time he was in the comic it was during a pretty awful run with pretty awful art and an worse story. It's unbelievable how bad it was then.

by chap22 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:43 pm

by Cas » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:49 pm

chap22 wrote:1. true, Surfer did appear therein, but he and matt didn't exactly interact in that issue as they do here

and

2. madness. that Nocenti run was fantastic, that whole DD/Inhumans/Number Nine/Mephisto/Blackheart "DD in Hell" mega-storyline was great, and that was back when JRJr still had some craft in his work. I fucking loved that era.

chap22 wrote:and back on-topic, this issue was great. the whole "I'll' drive" extended scene was glorious. another 5-star winner from Waid and Samnee.

by chap22 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:04 pm

A.R.P. wrote:To each their own, of course. Out of curiosity, do you have a least favorite era?

The whole time DD was on the board took me out of it a little. As soon I saw the solit for this issue that's EXACTLY what I was hoping wouldn't happen and lo and behold there's a giant splash of DD with a huge grin on his face "surfing" through the airspace of NYC. It was so cheesy I recoiled in humiliation for being my age having spent money on something like this. Needless to say, though, this issue was overall very good and the award winning art speaks for itself.

by Cas » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:40 pm

chap22 wrote:ha! hard to pick a "least favorite," but there are several I don't like:

Chichester post-the Owl story in 301-303
Bendis
and despite normally being a HUGE fan of the writer, DeMatteis's short run between Chichester & Kesel didn't do much for me either

to each their own, indeed, b/c that's the kind of stuff I absolutely LOVE about Waid's run. it's just nice to see DD get to enjoy some of the craziness in his life from time to time, and Waid and Samnee are masters at expressing just how much FUN some of the stuff Matt does can be; i'm sure bad stuff is just around the corner (it always is in this book), but the issues like this which juxtapose it with the lighter swashbuckle-y stuff are what make that bad stuff that much more meaningful and powerful. at least IMMO

by chap22 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:16 pm

A.R.P. wrote:There's a surprise! I doubt there's a more lauded modern run in comics. Even today people call it one of THE best work he's ever done. Amazing. If I may, what didn't you like about it?

• a good mix of action/adventure with lawyering; Matt's day job is a huge part of what makes the character unique, it's the whole juxtaposition/contrast of lawyer by day, vigilante by night where both serve the system in different ways -- I feel like Bendis's run had maybe 4 issues of Matt as a lawyer in 5+ years, whereas Waid is really knocking this aspect out of the park
• a cool interpretation or at least presentation of Matt's "powers"/heightened senses -- again, these are what makes Matt unique as a character; Waid is using ALL Matt's sensory gifts and limitations in new and interesting ways (and old reliable ways like the heartbeat lie detector), whereas I felt like Bendis barely ever mentioned them
• there HAS to be some mix of light and optimism to go with the dark and gritty stuff that happens to DD ever since Miller was on the book -- I don't ever want DD to get TOO far away from his swashbuckling roots; I think too much dark makes the book almost like reading "torture porn", while i also realize that on the other hand too much light becomes unrealistic in what has for decades been Marvel's most "realistic" book, so it's a fine line; Waid so far has a good mix, whereas Bendis went too far IMO in aping Miller (and taking it a step farther, as even Miller gave Matt a happy ending in Born Again), piling shit on top of shit on top of shit on top of Matt with NO light to offset it...it never felt to me like Matt EVER got any kind of "win"; again I personally feel there needs to be a contrast to make each aspect more meaningful

by ElijahSnowFan » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:24 pm

by ElijahSnowFan » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:30 pm

chap22 wrote:damn near everything. first of all, beyond anything Bendis did or didn't do, I hate Alex Maleev's artwork on superhero books. hate hate HATE it. I can't even begin to put words to how badly I hate it. so that was a huge knock against it there.

then moving on to the actual writing, I felt it really brought out all of Bendis's worst tics...repetitive language, replaying the same scene over and over, 12-panel pages with all static talking heads, "--the hell?"...all that crap before he reined it in. I also hated Milla...didn't like the character and felt her whole introduction was ham-handed, clumsy, and unnecessary. and then beyond that...

my opinions on a good DD run are that it should include the following (and for argument's sake, i'll contrast Bendis's run with Waid's on these points, but I could use others too):

• a good mix of action/adventure with lawyering; Matt's day job is a huge part of what makes the character unique, it's the whole juxtaposition/contrast of lawyer by day, vigilante by night where both serve the system in different ways -- I feel like Bendis's run had maybe 4 issues of Matt as a lawyer in 5+ years, whereas Waid is really knocking this aspect out of the park
• a cool interpretation or at least presentation of Matt's "powers"/heightened senses -- again, these are what makes Matt unique as a character; Waid is using ALL Matt's sensory gifts and limitations in new and interesting ways (and old reliable ways like the heartbeat lie detector), whereas I felt like Bendis barely ever mentioned them
• there HAS to be some mix of light and optimism to go with the dark and gritty stuff that happens to DD ever since Miller was on the book -- I don't ever want DD to get TOO far away from his swashbuckling roots; I think too much dark makes the book almost like reading "torture porn", while i also realize that on the other hand too much light becomes unrealistic in what has for decades been Marvel's most "realistic" book, so it's a fine line; Waid so far has a good mix, whereas Bendis went too far IMO in aping Miller, piling shit on top of shit on top of shit on top of Matt with NO light to offset it...it never felt to me like Matt EVER got any kind of "win"; again I personally feel there needs to be a contrast to make each aspect more meaningful

without those things, you lose sight of what makes Matt a unique HERO at Marvel. you take away the law, you take away the senses, and you take away the light and just make him this crazy, thuggish glutton for punishment and you end up with Moon Knight sans cape. that's not a Daredevil book I want to read, but as you said, to each their own, and I know most people love it. I just don't. at all.

i had other problems with it too, but those were my primary highlights.

by chap22 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:36 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
Yep. All of this. Every single bit of this.

I get it: There's an entire generation of Daredevil fans who aren't familiar with the character when he hasn't been the subject of, as Chap said, "torture porn." And I realize that since that is the case, there really isn't going to be any putting that back in the bottle.

But the last time I tried to read Daredevil, truly tried, was Brubaker's run. When he had Murdock just get effed over in every single way possible by Mister Fear, I was just beaten down. I didn't have anything left for Andy Diggle's run, and by the time Shadowland rolled around, I actually wanted Matt Murdock to die so creators would just stop trying to find ways to make the character the worst superhero ever.

So, yeah. I'm going to enjoy this Waid run, when it's done. Because I do realize it might be the last time Matt Murdock gets a run like it.

by Cas » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:41 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:As always, thanks for the review(s), Punch!

Enjoying reading this thread, because as of now, I have all issues of this run of Daredevil...but have only read one.

Why?

Because I'm going to read them all in one sitting, because I've liked what I've heard about this series. I realize that sounds crazy/counterintuitive, but I so despise the Dark Dark Dark Dark Daredevil interpretation, I realize that what Waid is doing just might be the last time I read the character in a way that I prefer, so I'm going to savor it with no interruptions.

by ElijahSnowFan » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:43 pm

chap22 wrote:hell, I felt like Bru's run was happy happy joy joy compared to Bendis's.

by ElijahSnowFan » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:46 pm

A.R.P. wrote:Have at it! You have a damn good time ahead!

Oh, do you have the tie-ins to the Devil In The Detail two parter with Spidey and The Omega Effect crossover with said web head and Punisher?

by chap22 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:50 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
HA! Talk about a low bridge to clear!

I always kinda wonder what would've happened if Frank Miller wouldn't have came back to do "Born Again." Daredevil was in a funky place at that time, due to Denny O'Neil really having an uneven time trying to follow one of the greatest runs of anything this line of work has ever produced, but Miller had really left Daredevil in not a horrible place after his first run, with Elektra resurrected and Matt having purged her spirit.

It's just...I wonder what Daredevil would have been like if Miller hadn't pretty much destroyed Matt Murdock in "Born Again," if a run like Waid's would've taken place instead.