Advertisement

Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Discuss the latest comic book news and front page articles, read or post your own reviews of comics, and talk about anything comic book related. Threads from the two subforums below will also show up here. News Stand topics can also be read and posted in from The Asylum.

Hey you! Reader! Want to be a part of the GREATEST COMIC BOOK AND GEEK COMMUNITY on the web?! Logged in users see WAY LESS ADS, so why not register? It's fast and it's easy, like your mom! Sign up today! Membership spots are limited!*

*Membership spots not really limited!

chap22
User avatar
YOU WILL NEED A NURSE
 
Posts: 21385
Likes: 27 posts
Liked in: 133 posts
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:08 pm
Location: Missi-by God-ssippi, a.k.a. Chapveria
Title: Pretentious curmudgeon


Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby chap22 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:53 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
I'll have to snag those off Comixology -- just for the hell of it and me being lazy, do you think you could tell me the titles/issues I'm looking for?


the Omega Effect is in Avenging Spider-Man #6 and Punisher #10 (Rucka's recent run, I forget what volume that is). the Spidey crossover is Amazing # 677
Image
rdrsfn82 wrote:Chap is right.

john lewis wrote:I got nothing but respect for [Chap]

jsalwen wrote:You're the man, Chap.

DMM wrote:Chap knows what he's talking about.

MoneyMelon wrote:chap is right about pretty much everything

GOSD wrote:chap FTW!

Ntikrst wrote:Chap's right

oogy wrote:All those quotes in your sig ain't lying.

Advertisement

A.R.P.
User avatar
cheese
 
Posts: 2128
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 36 posts
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:38 pm
Title: Unabashed sybarite.


Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby A.R.P. » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:56 pm

chap22 wrote:damn near everything. first of all, beyond anything Bendis did or didn't do, I hate Alex Maleev's artwork on superhero books. hate hate HATE it. I can't even begin to put words to how badly I hate it. so that was a huge knock against it there.

then moving on to the actual writing, I felt it really brought out all of Bendis's worst tics...ridiculous decompression to the point of padding, including: repetitive language, replaying the same scene over and over, 12-panel pages with all static talking heads, "--the hell?"...all that crap before he reined it in. I also hated Milla...didn't like the character and felt her whole introduction was ham-handed, clumsy, and unnecessary. and then beyond that...

my opinions on a good DD run are that it should include the following (and for argument's sake, i'll contrast Bendis's run with Waid's on these points, but I could use others too):
  • a good mix of action/adventure with lawyering; Matt's day job is a huge part of what makes the character unique, it's the whole juxtaposition/contrast of lawyer by day, vigilante by night where both serve the system in different ways -- I feel like Bendis's run had maybe 4 issues of Matt as a lawyer in 5+ years, whereas Waid is really knocking this aspect out of the park
  • a cool interpretation or at least presentation of Matt's "powers"/heightened senses -- again, these are what makes Matt unique as a character; Waid is using ALL Matt's sensory gifts and limitations in new and interesting ways (and old reliable ways like the heartbeat lie detector), whereas I felt like Bendis barely ever mentioned them
  • there HAS to be some mix of light and optimism to go with the dark and gritty stuff that happens to DD ever since Miller was on the book -- I don't ever want DD to get TOO far away from his swashbuckling roots; I think too much dark makes the book almost like reading "torture porn", while i also realize that on the other hand too much light becomes unrealistic in what has for decades been Marvel's most "realistic" book, so it's a fine line; Waid so far has a good mix, whereas Bendis went too far IMO in aping Miller (and taking it a step farther, as even Miller gave Matt a happy ending in Born Again), piling shit on top of shit on top of shit on top of Matt with NO light to offset it...it never felt to me like Matt EVER got any kind of "win"; again I personally feel there needs to be a contrast to make each aspect more meaningful

without those things, you lose sight of what makes Matt a unique HERO at Marvel. you take away the law, you take away the senses, and you take away the light and just make him this crazy, thuggish glutton for punishment and you end up with Moon Knight sans cape. that's not a Daredevil book I want to read, but as you said, to each their own, and I know most people love it. I just don't. at all.

i had other problems with it too, but those were my primary highlights.

Ah, understandable, I suppose, but as you can already guess I couldn't be farther on the opposite end of the spectrum. I loved that run for everything it is and, ABOVE ALL, for what it is some of the best art to ever touch this series for so beautifully accentuating the grounded reality a character like DD flourishes in.
Last edited by A.R.P. on Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

~ Cosplay of Kiryuuin Satsuki wearing kamui Senketsu.

chap22
User avatar
YOU WILL NEED A NURSE
 
Posts: 21385
Likes: 27 posts
Liked in: 133 posts
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:08 pm
Location: Missi-by God-ssippi, a.k.a. Chapveria
Title: Pretentious curmudgeon


Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby chap22 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:03 pm

A.R.P. wrote:Ah, understandable, I suppose, but as you can already guess I couldn't be farther on the opposite end of the spectrum. It'd pointless to try to counter every point you made since these are opinions and not facts, but as someone who loved that run for everything it is, ABOVE ALL for what it is some of the best art to ever touch this series for so beautifully accentuating the reality this book was so stunningly set in despite being in a universe where the impossible happens, I find it remarkable that opinions like yours, while valid, I guess, are out there in regards to this run and, conversely, in your case, Nocenti's run, too.


like I've said on here many, many times, I fully realize I'm practically the lone fish swimming upstream in regard to both those runs, but I don't care. :-D no one's ever gonna convince me that Bendis's run is great, and no one's ever gonna convince me that Nocenti's run isn't. like you said, they're opinions, and mine are pretty dead-set. :wink:


one point of contention, however:

Maleev's art is over-traced, sketchy, muddy, eyebleed-inducing chickenscratch crap. that's just fact. :P :wink: and on a book that's included artists such as JRSR and Jr., Colan, Mazzuchelli, Miller, Nord, Lark, Samnee, Marcos Martin, and others...saying it's some of the best art to ever touch the series is damn close to sacrilege IMO
Last edited by chap22 on Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
rdrsfn82 wrote:Chap is right.

john lewis wrote:I got nothing but respect for [Chap]

jsalwen wrote:You're the man, Chap.

DMM wrote:Chap knows what he's talking about.

MoneyMelon wrote:chap is right about pretty much everything

GOSD wrote:chap FTW!

Ntikrst wrote:Chap's right

oogy wrote:All those quotes in your sig ain't lying.

ElijahSnowFan
User avatar
cheese
 
Posts: 1820
Likes: 13 posts
Liked in: 57 posts
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:49 pm
Title: I'm like Atrocitus at times


Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:05 pm

chap22 wrote:
the Omega Effect is in Avenging Spider-Man #6 and Punisher #10 (Rucka's recent run, I forget what volume that is). the Spidey crossover is Amazing # 677


Thanks! I'll grab those, too!
Image

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

ElijahSnowFan
User avatar
cheese
 
Posts: 1820
Likes: 13 posts
Liked in: 57 posts
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:49 pm
Title: I'm like Atrocitus at times


Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:09 pm

chap22 wrote:
like I've said on here many, many times, I fully realize I'm practically the lone fish swimming upstream in regard to both those runs, but I don't care. :-D no one's ever gonna convince me that Bendis's run is great, and no one's ever gonna convince me that Nocenti's run isn't. like you said, they're opinions, and mine are pretty dead-set. :wink:


one point of contention, however:

Maleev's art is over-traced, sketchy, muddy, eyebleed-inducing chickenscratch crap. that's just fact. :P :wink: and on a book that's included artists such as JRSR and Jr., Colan, Mazzuchelli, Miller, Nord, Lark, Samnee, Marcos Martin, and others...saying it's some of the best art to ever touch the series is damn close to sacrilege IMO


You know what's funny? I didn't "get" Nocenti's run. I just didn't understand it. I tried, but I just didn't get it.

But at the same time, I dislike Bendis' run for the reasons you described, but was fine with Maleev's art.

Yet, at the same time, I was right there for "End of Days," as you guys know.

I like Daredevil...I don't need it to be...I guess I wish there was room for Daredevil like what I understand to be the Waid run, all the time. But, again, I do realize that people like Daredevil going through pain, and again, I do realize that that's where the character really is, after all this time.
Image

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

A.R.P.
User avatar
cheese
 
Posts: 2128
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 36 posts
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:38 pm
Title: Unabashed sybarite.


Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby A.R.P. » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:10 pm

chap22 wrote:
like I've said on here many, many times, I fully realize I'm practically the lone fish swimming upstream in regard to both those runs, but I don't care. :-D no one's ever gonna convince me that Bendis's run is great, and no one's ever gonna convince me that Nocenti's run isn't. like you said, they're opinions, and mine are pretty dead-set. :wink:
Ah, at least you're aware of yourself. :D

one point of contention, however:

Maleev's art is over-traced, sketchy, muddy, eyebleed-inducing chickenscratch crap. that's just fact. :P :wink:

His art is such a favorite of mine it got me picking up the short Moon Knight run he did with Bendis. Love his art! I'm almost incensed Marvel let him go to DC instead of giving him something else in the MU to keep his art here.
Image

~ Cosplay of Kiryuuin Satsuki wearing kamui Senketsu.

A.R.P.
User avatar
cheese
 
Posts: 2128
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 36 posts
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:38 pm
Title: Unabashed sybarite.


Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby A.R.P. » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:14 pm

chap22 wrote: and on a book that's included artists such as JRSR and Jr., Colan, Mazzuchelli, Miller, Nord, Lark, Samnee, Marcos Martin, and others...saying it's some of the best art to ever touch the series is damn close to sacrilege IMO


Ok, I should definitely clarify. Samnee, Lark, Marcos Martin, Mazzuchelli, Aja, and Poalo Rivera are all in the same ballpark as Maleev if not preferable. The rest you mentioned I could do without.
Image

~ Cosplay of Kiryuuin Satsuki wearing kamui Senketsu.

Punchy
User avatar
Staff Writer
 
Posts: 34370
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 43 posts
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:27 am
Location: UK
Title: Shitlord


Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby Punchy » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:17 pm

chap22 wrote:hell, I felt like Bru's run was happy happy joy joy compared to Bendis's. :lol:


I liked both, but I feel Brubaker's run was waaay darker than Bendis'.

ElijahSnowFan
User avatar
cheese
 
Posts: 1820
Likes: 13 posts
Liked in: 57 posts
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:49 pm
Title: I'm like Atrocitus at times


Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:20 pm

Punchy wrote:
I liked both, but I feel Brubaker's run was waaay darker than Bendis'.


Yeah...that's where I am, too. Where Brubaker took that was messed up. I mean, Mister Fear straight-up CRUSHED Matt Murdock. Just punished him.
Image

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

chap22
User avatar
YOU WILL NEED A NURSE
 
Posts: 21385
Likes: 27 posts
Liked in: 133 posts
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:08 pm
Location: Missi-by God-ssippi, a.k.a. Chapveria
Title: Pretentious curmudgeon


Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby chap22 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:21 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:You know what's funny? I didn't "get" Nocenti's run. I just didn't understand it. I tried, but I just didn't get it.

But at the same time, I dislike Bendis' run for the reasons you described, but was fine with Maleev's art.

Yet, at the same time, I was right there for "End of Days," as you guys know.

I like Daredevil...I don't need it to be...I guess I wish there was room for Daredevil like what I understand to be the Waid run, all the time. But, again, I do realize that people like Daredevil going through pain, and again, I do realize that that's where the character really is, after all this time.

it is, admittedly, a really weird, and at times unevfen run. and to me it's almost like 3 runs: there's the early stuff where she plays with the "shadow lawyer" behind other attorneys fighting for poor plaintiffs against massive corporations status quo, introduces Bushwhacker and Ammo and Bullet and Typhoid Mary and then, to use your word, just completely destroys DD. then there's the Beer With The Devil/travelling road show/Number Nine/Inhuman/Blackheart & Mephisto era where Matt rebuilds his spirit and "finds himself". which is then kinda weirdly followed immediately by her last arc where matt gets total amnesia, takes on the Jack Batlin boxer ID, and swaps places with Bullseye before getting his memory back (I absolutely love that arc, but it never made sense to me why she immediately gave him amnesia after the whole road trip to find himself stuff), beating Bullseye to take back his DD persona a nd then beating Bullet to bring the run sorta full circle.

Nocenti's REAL femiNazi liberal, and real smart, and that run touched on a lot of themes and political agendas that I can easily see (and did see) turning a lot of readers off. but I loved it, even though I was and am about as far opposite on the political spectrum as you can be from where she is, because it was different, and because it was smart, and because it dared to tackle some of that complex stuff, sometimes educating as well as entertaining. it ain't for everybody. hell, it wasn't for most anybody apparently...but I loved it. even got a big multi-arc epic DD story filed away somewhere which borrows and plays off a lot of the Mephisto stuff she did.
Image
rdrsfn82 wrote:Chap is right.

john lewis wrote:I got nothing but respect for [Chap]

jsalwen wrote:You're the man, Chap.

DMM wrote:Chap knows what he's talking about.

MoneyMelon wrote:chap is right about pretty much everything

GOSD wrote:chap FTW!

Ntikrst wrote:Chap's right

oogy wrote:All those quotes in your sig ain't lying.

A.R.P.
User avatar
cheese
 
Posts: 2128
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 36 posts
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:38 pm
Title: Unabashed sybarite.


Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby A.R.P. » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:21 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
Yep. All of this. Every single bit of this.

I get it: There's an entire generation of Daredevil fans who aren't familiar with the character when he hasn't been the subject of, as Chap said, "torture porn." And I realize that since that is the case, there really isn't going to be any putting that back in the bottle.

But the last time I tried to read Daredevil, truly tried, was Brubaker's run. When he had Murdock just get effed over in every single way possible by Mister Fear, I was just beaten down. I didn't have anything left for Andy Diggle's run, and by the time Shadowland rolled around, I actually wanted Matt Murdock to die so creators would just stop trying to find ways to make the character the worst superhero ever.

So, yeah. I'm going to enjoy this Waid run, when it's done. Because I do realize it might be the last time Matt Murdock gets a run like it.
Interestingly enough, I saw all that as DD never giving up no matter how difficult things got. His life was terrible and getting worse, but he always pushed forward no matter what.

This all feels strangely familiar to me. This conversation I mean. I think ElijahSnowFan said something similar elsewhere and I had the same retort. Or is just me?
Image

~ Cosplay of Kiryuuin Satsuki wearing kamui Senketsu.

chap22
User avatar
YOU WILL NEED A NURSE
 
Posts: 21385
Likes: 27 posts
Liked in: 133 posts
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:08 pm
Location: Missi-by God-ssippi, a.k.a. Chapveria
Title: Pretentious curmudgeon


Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby chap22 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:22 pm

A.R.P. wrote:
Ok, I should definitely clarify. Samnee, Lark, Marcos Martin, Mazzuchelli, Aja, and Poalo Rivera are all in the same ballpark as Maleev if not preferable. The rest you mentioned I could do without.


do without John Romita, Sr.???? sir, we are done, professionally.
Image
rdrsfn82 wrote:Chap is right.

john lewis wrote:I got nothing but respect for [Chap]

jsalwen wrote:You're the man, Chap.

DMM wrote:Chap knows what he's talking about.

MoneyMelon wrote:chap is right about pretty much everything

GOSD wrote:chap FTW!

Ntikrst wrote:Chap's right

oogy wrote:All those quotes in your sig ain't lying.

ElijahSnowFan
User avatar
cheese
 
Posts: 1820
Likes: 13 posts
Liked in: 57 posts
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:49 pm
Title: I'm like Atrocitus at times


Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:22 pm

chap22 wrote:an interesting question, although i'd argue Miller didn't even "destroy" Matt in BA...almost the opposite. he gave him his one true love back in Karen, he gave him family in discovering his mother, he gave him his faith back, he gave him a home...flipping burgers in Hell's Kitchen and really becoming the neighborhood's Guardian Devil. it was a different Matt, yes, but not a destroyed one. more like one rebuilt through a crucible. I always liked that Miller found some way to take away his license, his best friend, his money, and revealed his secret ID to his greatest enemy, yet still gave him a happy ending. that to me is the real beauty of Born Again.


Huh. I can see that point of view. I always thought having Karen as a "crack whore" was pretty harsh, but hey, who am I to judge? :-D :-D :-D
Image

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

chap22
User avatar
YOU WILL NEED A NURSE
 
Posts: 21385
Likes: 27 posts
Liked in: 133 posts
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:08 pm
Location: Missi-by God-ssippi, a.k.a. Chapveria
Title: Pretentious curmudgeon


Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby chap22 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:24 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
Yeah...that's where I am, too. Where Brubaker took that was messed up. I mean, Mister Fear straight-up CRUSHED Matt Murdock. Just punished him.

I think my preference for Bru's run was that: a) it was drawn by Lark, not Maleev :wink: ; 2) I loved Devil in Cell Block D and Return of the King, both arcs where I felt Matt actually got something close to a "win"; 3) all that Mr. Fear stuff served to get Milla the fuck out of Matt's life, which no matter how dark or crushing it was, made me happy. :-D
Image
rdrsfn82 wrote:Chap is right.

john lewis wrote:I got nothing but respect for [Chap]

jsalwen wrote:You're the man, Chap.

DMM wrote:Chap knows what he's talking about.

MoneyMelon wrote:chap is right about pretty much everything

GOSD wrote:chap FTW!

Ntikrst wrote:Chap's right

oogy wrote:All those quotes in your sig ain't lying.

ElijahSnowFan
User avatar
cheese
 
Posts: 1820
Likes: 13 posts
Liked in: 57 posts
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:49 pm
Title: I'm like Atrocitus at times


Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:24 pm

A.R.P. wrote:Interestingly enough, I saw all that as DD never giving up no matter how difficult things got. His life was terrible and getting worse, but he always pushed forward no matter what.

This all feels strangely familiar to me. This conversation I mean. I think ElijahSnowFan said something similar elsewhere and I had the same retort. Or is just me?


HA! Yeah, we touched on a few of these themes at the conclusion of "End of Days," when I posted about it. :-D :-D
Image

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

leave a comment with facebook

PreviousNext

Return to The News Stand



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 99 guests

Advertisement
cron