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Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

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chap22
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Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby chap22 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:26 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
Huh. I can see that point of view. I always thought having Karen as a "crack whore" was pretty harsh, but hey, who am I to judge? :-D :-D :-D

yeah, but that was issue 1, and Frank had to reach his "WHORES!!!!!" quota for the story. :wink: she was clean and sober and hanging on Matt's arm by story's end.
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rdrsfn82 wrote:Chap is right.

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Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby Casanova ^_^ » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:26 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:You know what's funny? I didn't "get" Nocenti's run. I just didn't understand it. I tried, but I just didn't get it.
No one apparently did. :D Except Chap, of course. I tried and couldn't do. Could not do it. JRJR art didn't help. Funny, I liked his art on Man Without Fear, but everywhere else it's awful.

But at the same time, I dislike Bendis' run for the reasons you described, but was fine with Maleev's art.
My man!

Yet, at the same time, I was right there for "End of Days," as you guys know.

I like Daredevil...I don't need it to be...I guess I wish there was room for Daredevil like what I understand to be the Waid run, all the time. But, again, I do realize that people like Daredevil going through pain, and again, I do realize that that's where the character really is, after all this time.

Not at all, but having ride around on the Silver Surfers board is going way too far in the opposite direction.
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Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:28 pm

chap22 wrote:I think my preference for Bru's run was that: a) it was drawn by Lark, not Maleev :wink: ; 2) I loved Devil in Cell Block D and Return of the King, both arcs where I felt Matt actually got something close to a "win"; 3) all that Mr. Fear stuff served to get Milla the fuck out of Matt's life, which no matter how dark or crushing it was, made me happy. :-D


I did like Lark's art -- it was nice. I remember reading "Return of the King" and wondering where the hell Brubaker was going, but I do want to say that just because I didn't prefer that run doesn't mean I don't respect it. I do think Brubaker took his time with it, played fair with the reader all the way through.

As for Nocenti...I doubt that I'd go back and read that, after all this time, but it's interesting to read your take on it. I'll file that away, too.
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*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

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Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby chap22 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:32 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
I did like Lark's art -- it was nice. I remember reading "Return of the King" and wondering where the hell Brubaker was going, but I do want to say that just because I didn't prefer that run doesn't mean I don't respect it. I do think Brubaker took his time with it, played fair with the reader all the way through.

As for Nocenti...I doubt that I'd go back and read that, after all this time, but it's interesting to read your take on it. I'll file that away, too.


this is neither here nor there, but just to throw it out there b/c I love talking about the Nocenti run: A Beer With the Devil (see below)still remains one of my favorite single issues of all time, DD or otherwise. and to this day i'm still not really sure i can put my finger on why. :lol:

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rdrsfn82 wrote:Chap is right.

john lewis wrote:I got nothing but respect for [Chap]

jsalwen wrote:You're the man, Chap.

DMM wrote:Chap knows what he's talking about.

MoneyMelon wrote:chap is right about pretty much everything

GOSD wrote:chap FTW!

Ntikrst wrote:Chap's right

oogy wrote:All those quotes in your sig ain't lying.

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Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby Casanova ^_^ » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:32 pm

chap22 wrote:it is, admittedly, a really weird, and at times unevfen run. and to me it's almost like 3 runs: there's the early stuff where she plays with the "shadow lawyer" behind other attorneys fighting for poor plaintiffs against massive corporations status quo, introduces Bushwhacker and Ammo and Bullet and Typhoid Mary and then, to use your word, just completely destroys DD. then there's the Beer With The Devil/travelling road show/Number Nine/Inhuman/Blackheart & Mephisto era where Matt rebuilds his spirit and "finds himself". which is then kinda weirdly followed immediately by her last arc where matt gets total amnesia, takes on the Jack Batlin boxer ID, and swaps places with Bullseye before getting his memory back (I absolutely love that arc, but it never made sense to me why she immediately gave him amnesia after the whole road trip to find himself stuff), beating Bullseye to take back his DD persona a nd then beating Bullet to bring the run sorta full circle.

Nocenti's REAL femiNazi liberal, and real smart, and that run touched on a lot of themes and political agendas that I can easily see (and did see) turning a lot of readers off. but I loved it, even though I was and am about as far opposite on the political spectrum as you can be from where she is, because it was different, and because it was smart, and because it dared to tackle some of that complex stuff, sometimes educating as well as entertaining. it ain't for everybody. hell, it wasn't for most anybody apparently...but I loved it. even got a big multi-arc epic DD story filed away somewhere which borrows and plays off a lot of the Mephisto stuff she did.

What and when was this? Do you remember off the top of your head?
Last edited by Casanova ^_^ on Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:33 pm

A.R.P. wrote:No one apparently did. :D Except Chap, of course. I tried and couldn't do. Could not do it. JRJR art didn't help. Funny, I liked his art on Man Without Fear, but everywhere else it's awful.

My man!


Not at all, but having ride around on the Silver Surfers board is going way too far in the opposite direction.


HA! Yeah, you might have to wonder if this is his "Spider-Man vs. Firelord" moment, a la Roger Stern back in the 80s. :-D :-D :-D (Though from the review, they weren't antagonists like they were back then.)

One thing I'll say about that: IIRC, after Stern did Spider-Man vs. Firelord, he went on one of the creative hot streaks of all time on Spider-Man, which cemented it to me as the definitive run on the character.
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*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

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Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:35 pm

chap22 wrote:
this is neither here nor there, but just to throw it out there b/c I love talking about the Nocenti run: A Beer With the Devil (see below)still remains one of my favorite single issues of all time, DD or otherwise. and to this day i'm still not really sure i can put my finger on why. :lol:

Image


HA! Man, you know by now that you don't have to explain to me why you like something generated in this industry -- I'm the guy who went to war repeatedly over "Age of Ultron." :-D :-D :-D

And will do it again, if anybody starts some shit! :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 8)
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*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

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Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby Casanova ^_^ » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:37 pm

chap22 wrote:
do without John Romita, Sr.???? sir, we are done, professionally.

It's not that I dislike his art, it's that he's never done anything I was ever particularly fond of. To my understanding he was primarily a Spidey artist way back and when and those stories are long before my time as a comic fan, all in addition to not being too interested in tracking down those older Spider stories.
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Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby chap22 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:43 pm

A.R.P. wrote:What and when was this? Do you remember off the top of your head?

My bad, I meant I have an idea for a multi-part arc playing off that stuff. I drafted it up (with additional input from another guy who shall for now remain nameless) as part of a Apprentice-style game over at another message board.

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Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby Casanova ^_^ » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:45 pm

chap22 wrote:I think my preference for Bru's run was that: a) it was drawn by Lark, not Maleev :wink: ; 2) I loved Devil in Cell Block D and Return of the King, both arcs where I felt Matt actually got something close to a "win"; 3) all that Mr. Fear stuff served to get Milla the fuck out of Matt's life, which no matter how dark or crushing it was, made me happy. :-D

Agreed with mostly everything here (both artist are incredible. And Lazarus has my attention primarily due to Lark! Plus Rucka!), but Milla wasn't bad. People are too rough on Milla. :smt011
Last edited by Casanova ^_^ on Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby chap22 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:46 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
HA! Yeah, you might have to wonder if this is his "Spider-Man vs. Firelord" moment, a la Roger Stern back in the 80s. :-D :-D :-D (Though from the review, they weren't antagonists like they were back then.)

One thing I'll say about that: IIRC, after Stern did Spider-Man vs. Firelord, he went on one of the creative hot streaks of all time on Spider-Man, which cemented it to me as the definitive run on the character.

1) pretty sure that was DeFalco, which was AFTER Stern's hot streak
2) that shit was awesome!!!! You bad-mouthing the Spidey/Firelord issues? WE, sir, are done, professionally.

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Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:55 pm

No, not bad-mouthing, just drawing the parallel of Daredevil meeting a herald of Galactus, and how jarring it can feel; I remember feeling the same way in Spider-Man vs. Firelord...though as time has gone on, I have come to believe that a focused Spider-Man could conceivably take a herald of Galactus. Conceivably.

And are you sure that's DeFalco? I would've sworn that was Stern.

We can't ever be done professionally, either -- you're my Comics-Reading Brother! :-D :-D
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*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

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Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby chap22 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:10 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:No, not bad-mouthing, just drawing the parallel of Daredevil meeting a herald of Galactus, and how jarring it can feel; I remember feeling the same way in Spider-Man vs. Firelord...though as time has gone on, I have come to believe that a focused Spider-Man could conceivably take a herald of Galactus. Conceivably.

And are you sure that's DeFalco? I would've sworn that was Stern.

We can't ever be done professionally, either -- you're my Comics-Reading Brother! :-D :-D

Pretty sure. Stern had him fight Juggy, DeFalco had Firelord

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Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby Casanova ^_^ » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:24 pm

Any thoughts on Kristen?
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Re: Daredevil #30 (I'll drive Spoilers)

Postby Amoebas » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:23 pm

chap22 wrote:like I've said on here many, many times, I fully realize I'm practically the lone fish swimming upstream in regard to both those runs, but I don't care. :-D no one's ever gonna convince me that Bendis's run is great, and no one's ever gonna convince me that Nocenti's run isn't. like you said, they're opinions, and mine are pretty dead-set. :wink:

You should know I'm with you on. Nocenti's run was damn good and I dropped Bendis's Daredevil pretty quickly.

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