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DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for Superman/Wonder Woman Series

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Re: RE: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum

Postby Zechs » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:07 pm

superfictious wrote:
What would that accomplish, and how does it deserve to be a failure?


Yeah I know all it would accomplish is one less female book in DC, but I absolutely loathe New 52 Barbara Gordon. It is a slap in the face to female heroes and sets them back twenty years.
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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby Zechs » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:13 pm

SporkBot wrote:Something else I noticed: When Babs was originally crippled, it was barely a year before she reinvented herself as Oracle. In the New52, not only is Oracle never mentioned, Babs doesn't seem to have any hacker skills whatsoever. This means 52-Babs was sulking in her wheelchair for three years before a "miracle cure" (that was never explained) came along.

New52 Barbara is a weaker Barbara. Good going, DC.


Even better. The moment she gets the ability to walk again what does she do? Goes right back to being Batgirl and because of that she has a higher death ratio than Stephanie Brown as Spoiler. And Bruce said she was always meant to be Batgirl? Only because Cass or Stephanie weren't introduced in this "new universe" to show Barbara how it's truly done. :roll: Even then when Cass didn't save a life it MEANT something to the story. In Barbara's the life not saved never means anything. It's just shock violence for the sake of shock.

The other problem is New 52 Barbara is engulfed in trauma. Instead of letting her trauma dominate her, Barbara became Oracle in the old universe. She didn't let the event set her back. She adjusted and became something more.

Now since she couldn't defeat her demons (thank you DC Editorial for that), she's still surrounded by it and more. I wouldn't be surprises if the next big trauma Gail has is Barbara just has a breakdown and more people die because of her.
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Re: RE: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum

Postby SporkBot » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:58 pm

draco x wrote:Oh, I remember Orpheus myself. It suck that he got such a shitty death though. I mean I get the fact that he wasn't a popular character but he deserved way better than to be killed so easily by a d-list Bat-villain.


Orpheus' problem was that he was solely created to be a black superhero. There was potential there, and I'm all for diversity, but his skin color shouldn't also be his motivation/personality. "Why I'd I become a crime-fighter? Because I'm black and I didn't see enough black people in the Justice League."

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Re: RE: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum

Postby Draco x » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:07 pm

SporkBot wrote:
Orpheus' problem was that he was solely created to be a black superhero. There was potential there, and I'm all for diversity, but his skin color shouldn't also be his motivation/personality. "Why I'd I become a crime-fighter? Because I'm black and I didn't see enough black people in the Justice League."


Which is kind of sad as if the writers knew what to do with him they could have moved him beyond that but instead whatever potential he could have had was ruined with that shitty death he got at the hands of Black Mask-What kills me is that Stephanie Brown put up a good fight against Black Mask before he apparently killed her off but Orpheus went out like a pussy to him. It's like the writers said fuck it we don't know what to do with him so let's kill him off to make Black Mask look good-I also hate how they made Batman so stupid to not realize that the Orpheus he was talking to afterwards was an imposter when Bats would have realized the truth from very quickly.

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Re: RE: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum

Postby Herald » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:31 pm

SporkBot wrote:
Orpheus' problem was that he was solely created to be a black superhero. There was potential there, and I'm all for diversity, but his skin color shouldn't also be his motivation/personality. "Why I'd I become a crime-fighter? Because I'm black and I didn't see enough black people in the Justice League."


Being a role model -- especially in the real DCU, where characters like Superman are deliberately presented as role models -- DOES have value and importance. And, as Draco mentioned, Orpheus can build from that. Black Lightning did it.

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Re: RE: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum

Postby SporkBot » Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:56 pm

Herald wrote:Being a role model -- especially in the real DCU, where characters like Superman are deliberately presented as role models -- DOES have value and importance. And, as Draco mentioned, Orpheus can build from that. Black Lightning did it.


A fair point. However, in that it felt like he was only a superhero because he was black (he didn't say it, but that was the vibe I still get remembering his intro mini), means that race is a bigger issue to him than, say Batman. Maybe that works in-universe, but it did work for the narrative (not explored by the writers). And one could argue that it makes his heroism more selfish than altruistic. But again, that's in the context of the universe, where the writing is a different context altogether.

Like I said, diversity is fine, but Superman and Spider-Man and Wolverine weren't created white so they could make non-white readers uncomfortable. If you want to create a black vigilante in the spirit of Batman, great! It may be best to leave race out of his motivation (racism played well for the character Night Hawk, but that's a different story...no pun intended). Besides, a black superhero can be as much a role model to non-black readers as much as Superman is no doubt a role model to non-white readers.

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Re: RE: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum

Postby Herald » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:29 pm

SporkBot wrote:
A fair point. However, in that it felt like he was only a superhero because he was black (he didn't say it, but that was the vibe I still get remembering his intro mini), means that race is a bigger issue to him than, say Batman.


And that's a reflection of real life. Race tends to be a bigger issue to black people than white people. There was even a poll this week basically confirming this, in conjunction with the 50th anniversary of King's "I Have a Dream" speech a few days ago.

Maybe that works in-universe, but it did work for the narrative (not explored by the writers).


I think it was mentioned enough; you certainly got the idea and remembered it, didn't you??

To refer back to what I said -- and to be a bit frank -- white people tend to get antsy when race gets discussed for any length of time. Given that they're the majority audience of comics, not all writers want to risk chasing them away.

And one could argue that it makes his heroism more selfish than altruistic.


Not at all. He wants to show that black people can be heroes, I'd say to counter the images of black thugs too often shown on the news and in the media. The fact that he risks life and limb to do this without expecting fame or fortune in return is quite altruistic.

But again, that's in the context of the universe, where the writing is a different context altogether.


Well, the real DCU does have some so-called "selfish" heroes; it's just that the altruistic ones heavily outweigh them.

Like I said, diversity is fine, but Superman and Spider-Man and Wolverine weren't created white so they could make non-white readers uncomfortable.


And there you go. Black people talking about race makes white people uncomfortable. And you ask for MORE exploration of it?? :?

If you want to create a black vigilante in the spirit of Batman, great! It may be best to leave race out of his motivation (racism played well for the character Night Hawk, but that's a different story...no pun intended).


Again, though, race issues tends to mean more to black people than to white people. When your race's history in your country of residence includes forced servitude, being counted as 3/5th of a person for representation purposes, segregation into unequal facilities, and even being followed in a store or stopped-and-frisked by police in the present day because "any given black person" automatically registers as "potential criminal!" to some... yes, the color of your skin is more of a conscious issue for you.

Besides, a black superhero can be as much a role model to non-black readers as much as Superman is no doubt a role model to non-white readers.


True enough. But the fact of the matter is -- and I've seen this expressed by non-white comic fans time and again on message boards and such -- many people want to see heroes that look like them, that ostensibly have similar experiences and outlooks on life. They're looking for avatars to live vicariously through that fit them better than the Man of Steel. I agree that Superman (the Real Steel Deal) is a great role model for all. But ultimately, he looks -- if you'll excuse the expression -- "mighty whitey". We do need non-white characters like Orpheus to show that non-white people can save the city/world/universe, too.

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Re: RE: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum

Postby SporkBot » Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:44 pm

Herald wrote:I think it was mentioned enough; you certainly got the idea and remembered it, didn't you??


Yes, but I feel he would've been a more well-rounded (and more endearing) character if we had more to go on his personality than "move over, white guy with years of training. Here comes...RANDOM BLACK GUY!"

Yes, I'm sure there was more to Orpheus than that...too bad it didn't come up. I swear, I read Orpheus Rising twice in the years I owned it, and I never got as good a bead on the character as I have others. (Sold that mini and over 190 other comics in a lot on eBay a while back). A page or two of flashbacks would've helped.

He wants to show that black people can be heroes, I'd say to counter the images of black thugs too often shown on the news and in the media. The fact that he risks life and limb to do this without expecting fame or fortune in return is quite altruistic.


Good counterpoint. However, if THAT'S all we get from his first impression to readers, in four (or six?) issues, instead of where he came from or what his youth was like...it's understandable that he didn't make it. We could say that despite being summed up in a short sentence, his motives could be altruistic, but that's not what I remember being given in the narrative. For a creator wanting to make a relatable character, that's great. It's what led the late Dwayne McDuffie to create Static (I wasn't a big fan of the cartoon, but it was serviceable). For a character's motivations...it feels vague, and a little weak. The clearly introduced Orpheus in a mini-series with Batman in the title in order to assure sales (a good marketing tactic) because an out-of-nowhere new character wouldn't last in his own ongoing from the get-go. But they failed to make much mention of what this character was about beyond "black guy". It felt like tokenism, even if unintentional.

Black people talking about race makes white people uncomfortable. And you ask for MORE exploration of it?


I think context matters. If the discussion is civil, then I don't see the problem. But if it's some overzealous debate, where an Al Sharpton-type is telling the white folk of today they need to apologize for actions taken two hundred years ago, then...well, yeah that's going to lead to some discomfort.

But I'm not so much insisting on a race discussion. What I'm saying is, don't make a "strong, black" character. Make a strong character, that's black. There is a world of difference.

When your race's history in your country of residence includes forced servitude, being counted as 3/5th of a person for representation purposes, segregation into unequal facilities, and even being followed in a store or stopped-and-frisked by police in the present day because "any given black person" automatically registers as "potential criminal!" to some... yes, the color of your skin is more of a conscious issue for you.


A conscious issue, yes. But not an insurmountable one. And part of doing so may mean simply letting go of some of that oh-so-comfortable animosity (not that I'm one to talk...A THOUSAND CURSES ON PRINCESS RALPH!).

But the fact of the matter is -- and I've seen this expressed by non-white comic fans time and again on message boards and such -- many people want to see heroes that look like them, that ostensibly have similar experiences and outlooks on life.


Oh, I get that. I don't see myself in every superhero, what with them being, y'know...attractive. I'm Catholic, but the only character I can think of that was not only Catholic but faithful to his beliefs was Nightcrawler, and he's dead (to say nothing of Chuck Austen's tampering). I'd love to see a Catholic character that wasn't a man-slut or a jerk or a straw-character created by a jackass writer to express how much he hates Catholics (heck, I'd like to see any male character that didn't devolve into man-slut at some point).

I get wanting to see oneself in a character. BUT, it helps if there's more to the character, that helps make them relatable outside their race or religion. I just didn't get that from "Orpheus Rising". But then, I think I only saw him once more before his death, introducing himself to Nightwing, so he didn't get a lot of exposure.

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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby IvCNuB4 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:20 am

SporkBot wrote: This means 52-Babs was sulking in her wheelchair for three years before a "miracle cure" (that was never explained) came along.


Actually it was. It was a clinic in South Africa that had developed an experimental procedure.


Zechs wrote:Yeah I know all it would accomplish is one less female book in DC, but I absolutely loathe New 52 Barbara Gordon. It is a slap in the face to female heroes and sets them back twenty years.

Even better. The moment she gets the ability to walk again what does she do? Goes right back to being Batgirl and because of that she has a higher death ratio than Stephanie Brown as Spoiler.


Once again Zechs' drama-queen responses on this subject have managed to brighten up this gloomy rainy Chicago day :lol:
And please educate us all on exactly what Barbara's "body count" is to date. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it's only two, and one of those (issue #1) was because she froze and was unable to prevent someone else from killing Det McKenna's partner. Recently Barbara, suffering from head trauma-induced blurry vision, had to defend herself and her mother against her psycho brother James Jr in a torrential downpour which ended with his accidental death.
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Re: RE: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum

Postby Draco x » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:28 am

SporkBot wrote:
Yes, but I feel he would've been a more well-rounded (and more endearing) character if we had more to go on his personality than "move over, white guy with years of training. Here comes...RANDOM BLACK GUY!"

Yes, I'm sure there was more to Orpheus than that...too bad it didn't come up. I swear, I read Orpheus Rising twice in the years I owned it, and I never got as good a bead on the character as I have others. (Sold that mini and over 190 other comics in a lot on eBay a while back). A page or two of flashbacks would've helped.



Good counterpoint. However, if THAT'S all we get from his first impression to readers, in four (or six?) issues, instead of where he came from or what his youth was like...it's understandable that he didn't make it. We could say that despite being summed up in a short sentence, his motives could be altruistic, but that's not what I remember being given in the narrative. For a creator wanting to make a relatable character, that's great. It's what led the late Dwayne McDuffie to create Static (I wasn't a big fan of the cartoon, but it was serviceable). For a character's motivations...it feels vague, and a little weak. The clearly introduced Orpheus in a mini-series with Batman in the title in order to assure sales (a good marketing tactic) because an out-of-nowhere new character wouldn't last in his own ongoing from the get-go. But they failed to make much mention of what this character was about beyond "black guy". It felt like tokenism, even if unintentional.



I think context matters. If the discussion is civil, then I don't see the problem. But if it's some overzealous debate, where an Al Sharpton-type is telling the white folk of today they need to apologize for actions taken two hundred years ago, then...well, yeah that's going to lead to some discomfort.

But I'm not so much insisting on a race discussion. What I'm saying is, don't make a "strong, black" character. Make a strong character, that's black. There is a world of difference.



A conscious issue, yes. But not an insurmountable one. And part of doing so may mean simply letting go of some of that oh-so-comfortable animosity (not that I'm one to talk...A THOUSAND CURSES ON PRINCESS RALPH!).



Oh, I get that. I don't see myself in every superhero, what with them being, y'know...attractive. I'm Catholic, but the only character I can think of that was not only Catholic but faithful to his beliefs was Nightcrawler, and he's dead (to say nothing of Chuck Austen's tampering). I'd love to see a Catholic character that wasn't a man-slut or a jerk or a straw-character created by a jackass writer to express how much he hates Catholics (heck, I'd like to see any male character that didn't devolve into man-slut at some point).

I get wanting to see oneself in a character. BUT, it helps if there's more to the character, that helps make them relatable outside their race or religion. I just didn't get that from "Orpheus Rising". But then, I think I only saw him once more before his death, introducing himself to Nightwing, so he didn't get a lot of exposure.


Which was kind of the gripe I had with how Orpheus was used in the bat-books as the writers for the most part didn't really know what to do with the character after his mini-series as he was basically what Jean Paul Valley, Stephanie Brown or even Cassandra Cain were: disposable characters DC didn't really care much for. When they made Orpheus get killed so easily by Black Mask and that god-awful arc it was basically the writers saying we don't give a shit about this character so let's kill him off without an after-thought-If Orpheus was to be killed make him go out in a much meaningful way as his killing was just done for shock-value for one of the worst Batman stories ever. If Spoiler was able to hold her own against Black Mask Orpheus should have been able to have kicked his as well.

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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby SporkBot » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:21 pm

IvCNuB4 wrote:Actually it was. It was a clinic in South Africa that had developed an experimental procedure.


Hm. If that was explained in the Batgirl comic, I may've forgotten it.

draco x wrote:Which was kind of the gripe I had with how Orpheus was used in the bat-books as the writers for the most part didn't really know what to do with the character after his mini-series as he was basically what Jean Paul Valley, Stephanie Brown or even Cassandra Cain were: disposable characters DC didn't really care much for. When they made Orpheus get killed so easily by Black Mask and that god-awful arc it was basically the writers saying we don't give a shit about this character so let's kill him off without an after-thought-If Orpheus was to be killed make him go out in a much meaningful way as his killing was just done for shock-value for one of the worst Batman stories ever.


Yeah, a more meaningful death would've improved things, but they probably thought, "If no one cares about this character alive, no one will care how he dies." It's a shame they had that attitude with the character, but he suffered from low exposure and almost no backstory given. The biggest shame about Orpheus was the wasted potential. Left to my own devices, I think I'd want to take a stab at writing as story about him.

If Spoiler was able to hold her own against Black Mask Orpheus should have been able to have kicked his as well.


Maybe...depends on what kind of training Orpheus had (I had to go to Wikipedia to look up his background. Decent enough backstory for comics, but I still don't remember any of it from the mini-series). By the time of War Games, Steph had not only her experience as Spoiler to learn from as well as working with Drake and learning from him to boot, she'd been Robin for a time, officially trained by Batman himself. Then there's her Devil-may-care attitude. I'd have to re-read that story.

Well, we could go back and forth all day. Fact is, you're correct: DC didn't know what to do with the character, and bumped him off. Unlike Steph, however, he didn't have a vocal enough fanbase to warrant coming back in some manner.

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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby Draco x » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:42 pm

SporkBot wrote:
Hm. If that was explained in the Batgirl comic, I may've forgotten it.



Yeah, a more meaningful death would've improved things, but they probably thought, "If no one cares about this character alive, no one will care how he dies." It's a shame they had that attitude with the character, but he suffered from low exposure and almost no backstory given. The biggest shame about Orpheus was the wasted potential. Left to my own devices, I think I'd want to take a stab at writing as story about him.



Maybe...depends on what kind of training Orpheus had (I had to go to Wikipedia to look up his background. Decent enough backstory for comics, but I still don't remember any of it from the mini-series). By the time of War Games, Steph had not only her experience as Spoiler to learn from as well as working with Drake and learning from him to boot, she'd been Robin for a time, officially trained by Batman himself. Then there's her Devil-may-care attitude. I'd have to re-read that story.

Well, we could go back and forth all day. Fact is, you're correct: DC didn't know what to do with the character, and bumped him off. Unlike Steph, however, he didn't have a vocal enough fanbase to warrant coming back in some manner.


So agreed here-even though I did read on some blogs that people who thought War Games sucked as a storyline stated that one of the things that they hated about it was the poor treatment Orpheus got with that lame death he was given. We both agree he wasn't a popular bat character but in the hands of some good writers who knows what could have happened with the direction Orpheus could have gone. The funny thing is that I would take Orpheus over the Michael Lane Azrael or even the Luke Fox Batwing anyday-although I like the original Batwing as well.

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Re: RE: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum

Postby Arion » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:01 pm

SporkBot wrote:
Orpheus' problem was that he was solely created to be a black superhero. There was potential there, and I'm all for diversity, but his skin color shouldn't also be his motivation/personality. "Why I'd I become a crime-fighter? Because I'm black and I didn't see enough black people in the Justice League."


Don't tell me the guy actually said that on the page...

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Re: RE: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum

Postby SporkBot » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:23 pm

Arion wrote:Don't tell me the guy actually said that on the page...


What I remember was, in a conversation that somehow turned for the racial, Batman told him, "There are other heroes of color." Orpheus' response was that it was "not enough." There may have also been a reference to the League's headquarters being Mount Olympus or the like. That's really the majority of what I recall from the story.

My remark is admittedly a little glib, but not altogether inaccurate, either. He had a few other appearance (as noted on his Wikipedia page), so maybe he got better fleshed out there. But as for his introductory story...that's what it felt like.

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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby Herald » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:31 pm

SporkBot wrote:
Yes, but I feel he would've been a more well-rounded (and more endearing) character if we had more to go on his personality than "move over, white guy with years of training. Here comes...RANDOM BLACK GUY!"

Yes, I'm sure there was more to Orpheus than that...too bad it didn't come up. I swear, I read Orpheus Rising twice in the years I owned it, and I never got as good a bead on the character as I have others. (Sold that mini and over 190 other comics in a lot on eBay a while back). A page or two of flashbacks would've helped.


Ask, and ye shall receive:

Image

Image

Image

Image

That was from issue 4 of Batman: Orpheus Rising.


Good counterpoint. However, if THAT'S all we get from his first impression to readers, in four (or six?) issues


Five issues.

instead of where he came from or what his youth was like...it's understandable that he didn't make it. We could say that despite being summed up in a short sentence, his motives could be altruistic, but that's not what I remember being given in the narrative.


Before even the flashback I showed, in issue 3, we also got hints about where he comes from. In it, Orpheus talks via computer to an Oracle-like partner, who converses with him in a friendly manner and feeds him information. This informant even mentions that he was part of a team (leading to the question of what might have happened to them). When his ex-girlfriend shows up, we learn that he's a producer in a dance group, and he got her a job there as a dancer.

For a creator wanting to make a relatable character, that's great. It's what led the late Dwayne McDuffie to create Static (I wasn't a big fan of the cartoon, but it was serviceable). For a character's motivations...it feels vague, and a little weak. The clearly introduced Orpheus in a mini-series with Batman in the title in order to assure sales (a good marketing tactic) because an out-of-nowhere new character wouldn't last in his own ongoing from the get-go. But they failed to make much mention of what this character was about beyond "black guy". It felt like tokenism, even if unintentional.


But, as we've seen, they made more mention of the character. You (and others; I've had a similar discussion before, on the DC Comics boards) simply missed it.

I think context matters. If the discussion is civil, then I don't see the problem. But if it's some overzealous debate, where an Al Sharpton-type is telling the white folk of today they need to apologize for actions taken two hundred years ago, then...well, yeah that's going to lead to some discomfort.


Even a civil discussion can result in some discomfort. I saw one discussion last week on... I believe it was CBS This Morning... in which the very first question was to the white people on a panel about how nervous the idea of talking about race was to them. They were indeed nervous... and the discussion was just beginning, with no foreknowledge of how it would turn out!

But I'm not so much insisting on a race discussion. What I'm saying is, don't make a "strong, black" character. Make a strong character, that's black. There is a world of difference.


Ah, but what if they did, and you simply failed to see that they did?? :wink:

SporkBot wrote:A conscious issue, yes. But not an insurmountable one. And part of doing so may mean simply letting go of some of that oh-so-comfortable animosity (not that I'm one to talk...A THOUSAND CURSES ON PRINCESS RALPH!).


I wouldn't call it animosity; it's really a well-earned skepticism. As I said, even today, blacks are disproportionately stopped-and-frisked under New York's controversial law. And, as President Obama acknowledged after the Trayvon Martin verdict, practically any black man knows the feeling of being followed in a store because of the perception that "black guy = potential criminal!" Even Oprah Winfrey can't go to a high-class store in Switzerland and buy an expensive purse without being told by the store clerk that it's far too expensive for her, when the only reason the lady had to doubt her ability to pay was her skin color.

Black people can't just "let go" of the issue of race when it's being shoved in their faces all the time, even to this day. It's a persistent perception issue that white people are rarely confronted with in such a harsh manner.

Oh, I get that. I don't see myself in every superhero, what with them being, y'know...attractive. I'm Catholic, but the only character I can think of that was not only Catholic but faithful to his beliefs was Nightcrawler, and he's dead (to say nothing of Chuck Austen's tampering). I'd love to see a Catholic character that wasn't a man-slut or a jerk or a straw-character created by a jackass writer to express how much he hates Catholics


Yeah, the only Catholics I can think of are Huntress Helena Bertinelli (who, despite wearing her cross on her late '90s costume like a good Catholic girl, killed people regularly like a BAD Catholic girl) and Cardinal Sin (who, as the name suggests, went evil).

(heck, I'd like to see any male character that didn't devolve into man-slut at some point).


Have you met my favorite Robin, Tim Drake?? He's an expert at telling the girls who proposition him, "Let's Wait A While." Even in the DiDio era, they managed to get that part of him right, when he turned down "Ravager".
Last edited by Herald on Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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