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DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for Superman/Wonder Woman Series

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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby SporkBot » Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:31 pm

Herald wrote:Ask, and ye shall receive:


Fair enough. Guess all that slipped my mind. Maybe it was the presentation or the oodles of other stories I've read, but whatever.

But, as we've seen, they made more mention of the character. You (and others; I've had a similar discussion before, on the DC Comics boards) simply missed it.


Yeah, I noticed on Wikipedia that he made appearances in "Batman Family".

Even a civil discussion can result in some discomfort.


It can...but it doesn't necessitate it. The only alternative is to never acknowledge if there's a problem. I don't like going outside my comfort zone either, but there are some issues that are bigger than an individual. If it's important and someone squirms in their chair a little, so be it.

Ah, but what if they did, and you simply failed to see that they did?


Riiiiight. For the sake of argument, let's say they gave him all the good elements of a strong character that happened to be black, and it went over my head. If the writing itself was bad, then the character will still suffer. Just as a good writer can make a bad story concept work as best he can (Straczynski comes to mind), a bad writer can decimate a character, new or classic. I mean, ever read Chuck Austen's run on JLA? Yeeeesh...and those characters were around for decades...

I wouldn't call it animosity; it's really a well-earned skepticism. ...Black people can't just "let go" of the issue of race when it's being shoved in their faces all the time, even to this day. It's a persistent perception issue that white people are rarely confronted with in such a harsh manner.


True, and I don't mean that if a black guy is wrongfully treated, that he shouldn't seek some form of justice. A mentality that one is in a powerless position to make changes without resorting to extreme means is just as bad. I do think, however, that just because one or more white folk in one part of the country is distrustful and socially abusive to black people, the entirety of the white population shouldn't be made to supply recompense, be it emotional or whathaveyou.

Yeah, the only Catholics I can think of are Huntress Helena Bertinelli (who, despite wearing her cross on her late '90s costume like a good Catholic girl, killed people regularly like a BAD Catholic girl) and Cardinal Sin (who, as the name suggests, went evil).


Besides Nightcrawler (hinted at coming back! YAY!), I can think of Daredevil and Gambit. DC characters...yeah, couldn't think of any besides Huntress. Maybe Renee Montoya, if only because she's Latina and being a lesbian would provide feelings of confliction (but again, I don't know for sure). I THINK maybe Tarantula, but she forced herself on a nigh-catatonic Nightwing.

Have you met my favorite Robin, Tim Drake?? He's an expert at telling the girls who proposition him, "Let's Wait A While." Even in the DiDio era, they managed to get that part of him right, when he turned down "Ravager".


You're right, I forgot about Drake (my favorite Robin as well). In fact, one of the last Red Robin stories before the reboot involved one of Ra's Al Ghul's then-new kids trying to force his seed out of him. But from what I've heard about his New52 incarnation...ugh.

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Re: RE: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum

Postby Arion » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:04 pm

SporkBot wrote:
What I remember was, in a conversation that somehow turned for the racial, Batman told him, "There are other heroes of color." Orpheus' response was that it was "not enough." There may have also been a reference to the League's headquarters being Mount Olympus or the like. That's really the majority of what I recall from the story.

My remark is admittedly a little glib, but not altogether inaccurate, either. He had a few other appearance (as noted on his Wikipedia page), so maybe he got better fleshed out there. But as for his introductory story...that's what it felt like.


Why would Batman say heroes of color? Sounds too polite. He would simply say black heroes or something.
Orpheus reply is kind of... odd.

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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby Draco x » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:35 pm

Herald wrote:
Ask, and ye shall receive:

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That was from issue 4 of Batman: Orpheus Rising.



Five issues.



Before even the flashback I showed, in issue 3, we also got hints about where he comes from. In it, Orpheus talks via computer to an Oracle-like partner, who converses with him in a friendly manner and feeds him information. This informant even mentions that he was part of a team (leading to the question of what might have happened to them). When his ex-girlfriend shows up, we learn that he's a producer in a dance group, and he got her a job there as a dancer.



But, as we've seen, they made more mention of the character. You (and others; I've had a similar discussion before, on the DC Comics boards) simply missed it.



Even a civil discussion can result in some discomfort. I saw one discussion last week on... I believe it was CBS This Morning... in which the very first question was to the white people on a panel about how nervous the idea of talking about race was to them. They were indeed nervous... and the discussion was just beginning, with no foreknowledge of how it would turn out!



Ah, but what if they did, and you simply failed to see that they did?? :wink:



I wouldn't call it animosity; it's really a well-earned skepticism. As I said, even today, blacks are disproportionately stopped-and-frisked under New York's controversial law. And, as President Obama acknowledged after the Trayvon Martin verdict, practically any black man knows the feeling of being followed in a store because of the perception that "black guy = potential criminal!" Even Oprah Winfrey can't go to a high-class store in Switzerland and buy an expensive purse without being told by the store clerk that it's far too expensive for her, when the only reason the lady had to doubt her ability to pay was her skin color.

Black people can't just "let go" of the issue of race when it's being shoved in their faces all the time, even to this day. It's a persistent perception issue that white people are rarely confronted with in such a harsh manner.



Yeah, the only Catholics I can think of are Huntress Helena Bertinelli (who, despite wearing her cross on her late '90s costume like a good Catholic girl, killed people regularly like a BAD Catholic girl) and Cardinal Sin (who, as the name suggests, went evil).



Have you met my favorite Robin, Tim Drake?? He's an expert at telling the girls who proposition him, "Let's Wait A While." Even in the DiDio era, they managed to get that part of him right, when he turned down "Ravager".



This is what I meant. A character who had that type of training deserved better than that pussy ending he got from getting so easily killed by Black Mask. I am pretty sure Orpheus would have beaten Black Mask within in an inch of his life in a fair fight. I theorize whoever wrote that shitty issue of War Games most likely knew nothing about the character or ever read a story with him beforehand.

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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby SporkBot » Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:40 am

draco x wrote:This is what I meant. A character who had that type of training deserved better than that pussy ending he got from getting so easily killed by Black Mask. I am pretty sure Orpheus would have beaten Black Mask within in an inch of his life in a fair fight. I theorize whoever wrote that shitty issue of War Games most likely knew nothing about the character or ever read a story with him beforehand.


Someone higher up at DC probably said, "We're killing Orpheus off because nobody seems to care about him, we don't really care how", and the writer went from there. That was the case for Adam Beechen writing "Evil Cassandra", so it wouldn't surprise me.

Despite all this, I don't think War Games was so bad.

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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby HNutz » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:42 am

draco x wrote:

This is what I meant. A character who had that type of training deserved better than that pussy ending he got from getting so easily killed by Black Mask. I am pretty sure Orpheus would have beaten Black Mask within in an inch of his life in a fair fight. I theorize whoever wrote that shitty issue of War Games most likely knew nothing about the character or ever read a story with him beforehand.


But "Getting beat up because he liked to dance, so he learned to fight" doesn't exactly have the same ooomph as "family killed in front of him".

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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby Draco x » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:50 pm

SporkBot wrote:
Someone higher up at DC probably said, "We're killing Orpheus off because nobody seems to care about him, we don't really care how", and the writer went from there. That was the case for Adam Beechen writing "Evil Cassandra", so it wouldn't surprise me.

Despite all this, I don't think War Games was so bad.


Clear examples of the Didio-run DC unfortunately. It's not the first time the fans and writers have had to put with Didio's moronic short-sightedness.

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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby Draco x » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:51 pm

HNutz wrote:
But "Getting beat up because he liked to dance, so he learned to fight" doesn't exactly have the same ooomph as "family killed in front of him".


Good writing could have moved it beyond that though.

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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby Arion » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:31 pm

SporkBot wrote:
Someone higher up at DC probably said, "We're killing Orpheus off because nobody seems to care about him, we don't really care how", and the writer went from there. That was the case for Adam Beechen writing "Evil Cassandra", so it wouldn't surprise me.

Despite all this, I don't think War Games was so bad.


I think I only read one issue of War Games.

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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby SporkBot » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:56 pm

HNutz wrote:But "Getting beat up because he liked to dance, so he learned to fight" doesn't exactly have the same ooomph as "family killed in front of him".


draco x wrote:Good writing could have moved it beyond that though.


I think it might've worked better if he'd been having a conversation with someone about it.
"You got beat up for dancing, so you learned to fight? That's weird."
"That's what I thought, back then. But [parent/teacher/mentor] told me that if it was what I really enjoyed, I had every right to do it. And if I got flak for it, I had every right to defend myself."
Then the obligatory statement about football players practicing ballet and other benefits of dance.

This would give the exposition a personal touch, and probably help better connect the character to the audience, narratively speaking. But that's just my thinking.

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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby Draco x » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:18 pm

SporkBot wrote:


I think it might've worked better if he'd been having a conversation with someone about it.
"You got beat up for dancing, so you learned to fight? That's weird."
"That's what I thought, back then. But [parent/teacher/mentor] told me that if it was what I really enjoyed, I had every right to do it. And if I got flak for it, I had every right to defend myself."
Then the obligatory statement about football players practicing ballet and other benefits of dance.

This would give the exposition a personal touch, and probably help better connect the character to the audience, narratively speaking. But that's just my thinking.


Fair point. However knowing Didio they would have found a way to fuck things up like they do almost everything else in the DC Universe.

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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby syxxpakk » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:27 pm

I have to say, if not for Dan Didio and Geoff Johns, I wouldn't be reading DC Comics right now. So I hope he continues to stay on.
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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby Draco x » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:38 pm

syxxpakk wrote:I have to say, if not for Dan Didio and Geoff Johns, I wouldn't be reading DC Comics right now. So I hope he continues to stay on.


So if he were to get shown the door that would pretty much ruin your day, huh?

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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby syxxpakk » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:42 pm

No, because silly stuff like that doesn't ruin my day. What I'm saying is DC was pretty boring before he ( and to a greater extent Johns) came along, IMO. Now it's not.
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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby Draco x » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:45 pm

syxxpakk wrote:No, because silly stuff like that doesn't ruin my day. What I'm saying is DC was pretty boring before he ( and to a greater extent Johns) came along, IMO. Now it's not.


And once again Syxx missed the sarcasm in my statement.

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Re: DC Bound and Determined to Kill Any and All Momentum for

Postby syxxpakk » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:51 pm

LOL there was no sarcasm in your statement. You were asking if I would dislike Didio leaving, with some colorful wording. I responded in kind. Don't be ridiculous, it doesn't suit you.
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