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[Zechs]

This is a list of creators (and one executive) who have allegedly suffered at the hands of DC's editorial mismanagement since Bob Harras took over and Dan and the Gang moved up to higher executive positions (courtesy of this brilliant timeline):

Nick Spencer (Supergirl)
John Rozum (Static Shock)
J.T. Krul (Green Arrow)
George Perez (Superman)
Gail Simone (Fury of Firestorm)
Rob Marz (Voodoo)
Chris Roberson (DC in general)
Rob Liefeld (Grifter, Deathstroke, Hawkman)
Karen Berger (Vertigo)
Gail Simone (Batgirl, later rehired)
Robert Vendetti (Constantine)
Jim Zubkavich (Birds of Prey)
Art Baltazar (Superman Family Adventures)
Franco (Superman Family Adventures)
Keith GIffen (Legion of Superheroes)
Todd Farmer (Insurgent)
Josh Fialkov (Green Lantern Corps, Red Lanterns)
Andy Diggle (Action Comics)
Tony S. Daniel (Action Comics)
Mike Johnson (Supergirl)
Bruce Timm (DC Animated)
Mico Suayan (Red Hood and the Outlaws)
James Robinson (Earth 2, DC in general)
Kevin Maguire (Justice League 3000)
J.H. Williams III (Batwoman)
W. Haden Blackman (Batwoman)


That's not counting regular creative team changes. They're all changes that came with some degree of controversy. You could maybe make a case for a few of them. All 26 of them? Where there's smoke there's fire.

That's not even counting Robinson also on Masters of the Universe and Giffen too. Or Adam Beechen leaving Batman Beyond. It isn't just fire blowing smoke. It's a freaking blaze of a fire.

[Chris]

You could launch a brand new, star-studded comics publisher with this talent.

Bendis has already tweeted each of the artists on this list trying to vulture them to work on his Marvel books next year.

[habitual]

Hab,

I think it's a drastically different situation. Why would Bendis, Hickman or Fraction leave? They get to decide the direction of the companies top properties. Waid, Aaron, Remender and Gillen have it pretty good.

Anyone I didn't name just needs to turn in books. That's it. Not a shit ton of controversy to be had over there. Brubaker and Rucka don't even need to be there. I just names a bunch of quality writers but when I look at the shelves, a lot more comics are being written by guys who aren't names and will do the job they are asked to do.

As a publisher I'd want to see Robinson, Williams, Diggle & JMS on my roster but those guys have enough cred that they can do other work so they probably don't need to take any of my editorial shit.

If I look outside my office and see Hickman, Bendis, Fraction, and Brian Wood sitting there, I might just STFU...unless The Giant Mouse Overlord was breathing down my neck.

Also the guys at Marvel come from the Indies. They've all cashed in on Creator Owned. This is a fact not lost on the folks leaving DC.

Who wants to push a pencil for the new yet familiar adventures of comics in the 90's at DC when they can make a splash on their own at Image or Darkhorse ala Baltazar, Rucka, Brubaker, BKV & JMS not to mention the Marvel guys STILL doing new Image titles like Hickman and Fraction.

We're all crying because established creators are leaving work for hire situations they agreed to in the 1st place. We should be watching the dudes who stay because if you want to see some creative growth, these guys now all have a chance to step up. See, Willians and Diggle don't have to work at DC but there are people at DC who have been fn killing it over there and no one is buying their books so they get cancelled.

To me it's a bigger crime to have to cancel Dial H and Demon Knights than it is to be mad that a creator quit because he could have a gay marriage in his book when he knew damn well that there were NO marriages PERIOD.

So we agree that Marvel runs a much better editorial shop and this illusion stuff you were referring too is just a bunch of malarky?

It's not like this is an isolated incident, DC has a major problem dealing with their talent.

Hab

[S.F. Jude Terror]

Nick Spencer, John Rozum,
J.T. Krul, George Perez,
Gail Simone, Ron Marz, Chris Roberson.

Rob Liefeld, Karen Berger,
SImone again, Robert Vendetti
Jim Zubkavich, Art Baltazar and Franco.

Keith GIffen, Todd Farmer,
Josh Fialkov, Andy Diggle,
Tony S. Daniel, Mike Johnson, Bruce Timm had to go.
Mico Suayan, James Robinson,
Kevin Maguire, J.H. Williams,
W. Haden Blackman, "hey, it's all their fault" said Didio!

We didn't start the fire!
It was always burning since the world's been turning!

[Chessack]

Again, I think some of us are confusing what the issue is. Sure, he was mad about the marriage thing, but that didn't seem to be what drove him away. It was continued, last minute editorial changes----the very same complaint cited by Perez and others as they left.

To me, it's George Perez quitting DC after 30+ years that is the real canary in the coal mine. One can maybe argue that this writer or that is not "on board" with how a large company with a shared universe does things, how you can't expect to have your character operate in a vacuum. One can leave aside that DC does let some of its writers do just that (Wonder Woman, for example, who in her own series bears absolutely no resemblance to the WW being shown everywhere else in the DCnU).

But then we come to the matter of George Perez. The guy whose art for decades defined DC. The artist who was "Mr. DC" to a whole generation of comics fans (like me). It's not like he doesn't know how to work within the confines of the shared DC Universe, or doesn't "get" their characters or how to meet deadlines or any of that. Perez isn't just a professional, he is a decades-long DC-exclusive professional. He knows what he's doing, and how to do it, as well as any creator in the industry. If anyone understands "the DC way of doing things," it should be Perez.

And yet within 6 months of the New 52 starting, he was complaining about editorial and about how he was being treated. And in < 2 years, he was gone, completely from DC.

I mean just think about what that means... George Perez quit working for DC. He walked away from being able to draw, and write about Wonder Woman, Superman, Supergirl, the Teen Titans, Batman, Robin, Nightwing, etc, etc. Characters he has drawn and loved for years. Characters who, in some cases, became popular precisely because he drew them (Teen Titans, being a prime example). He got up and walked away from all those characters, characters we know he loves dearly. Because of DC's management.

That's really all you need to know, to realize how bad it is.

[achilles]

Re: the Gay Marriage. THERE IS NO MARRIAGE. Gay or Otherwise. DC wants diverse and interesting characters but just because they are gay doesn't mean all your gay characters need to get married. Are all of your gay friends trying to get married? How about all your straight friends?

DC sees that as making a character less interesting. Editorial is clearly being more hands on. Creators who can make it out there on their own are taking shots. Creators who really need a pay check might be writing New Guardians or Suicide Squad.

I'm not sure saying, "prove you have the cred to be in charge" is the right thing to do. If you do that then you never would have gotten Quesada at Marvel.

Like I said, the marriage thing, gay or otherwise wasn't what this was really about, (the team leaving that is). It was about CONTINUED editorial changes, last minute stuff. That isn't being "hands on", it's more like a reach around from some creepy guy in an adult theatre, (sorry, I just had to go there). It's basically showing that editorial doesn't know what it wants, and is constantly changing things because there was and is no plan to what DC is doing, (beside the Johns events mostly).

As far as DC thinking that marriage makes things less interesting, I'm thinking they either never have been, or have no imagination. I know they have, and had, writers who can make that interesting. Some editorial dictate about how Bat types have to be miserable just is another example of Didio smoking too much weed IMO.

You don't need to see Batman calling Robin "chum", but there's a happy medium DC seems not to get.

[Herald]

I'm not sure saying, "prove you have the cred to be in charge" is the right thing to do. If you do that then you never would have gotten Quesada at Marvel.

Quesada was editor of Marvel Knights before he became EIC of Marvel proper. He made characters like Daredevil and the Inhumans viable, or viable again. That proved he had the cred to be in charge. Whereas DiDio had NO experience whatsoever in comics before DC brought him in.

[Herald]

Like I said, the marriage thing, gay or otherwise wasn't what this was really about, (the team leaving that is). It was about CONTINUED editorial changes, last minute stuff. That isn't being "hands on", it's more like a reach around from some creepy guy in an adult theatre, (sorry, I just had to go there). It's basically showing that editorial doesn't know what it wants, and is constantly changing things because there was and is no plan to what DC is doing, (beside the Johns events mostly).

Indeed.

Presented once again, for everyone's edification, the time that Dwayne McDuffie ran up against a capricious DC Editorial:

As far as DC thinking that marriage makes things less interesting, I'm thinking they either never have been, or have no imagination. I know they have, and had, writers who can make that interesting.

A real writer can make practically any circumstance interesting.



Too bad DC has overly controlling editors who THINK they're writers.

Some editorial dictate about how Bat types have to be miserable just is another example of Didio smoking too much weed IMO.

I'd say they should beware of Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy. Readers can lose interest if everything is miserable all the time.

You don't need to see Batman calling Robin "chum", but there's a happy medium DC seems not to get.

The ironic thing is, DC did have that medium, before Dan and the Gang showed up to ruin the party.

[achilles]

Indeed.

Presented once again, for everyone's edification, the time that Dwayne McDuffie ran up against a capricious DC Editorial:





A real writer can make practically any circumstance interesting.



Too bad DC has overly controlling editors who THINK they're writers.



I'd say they should beware of Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy. Readers can lose interest if everything is miserable all the time.



The ironic thing is, DC did have that medium, before Dan and the Gang showed up to ruin the party.

Yes, well, DC used to be fun.

[Doc Midnight]

This is a list of creators (and one executive) who have allegedly suffered at the hands of DC's editorial mismanagement since Bob Harras took over and Dan and the Gang moved up to higher executive positions (courtesy of this brilliant timeline):

Nick Spencer (Supergirl)
John Rozum (Static Shock)
J.T. Krul (Green Arrow)
George Perez (Superman)
Gail Simone (Fury of Firestorm)
Ron Marz (Voodoo)
Chris Roberson (DC in general)
Rob Liefeld (Grifter, Deathstroke, Hawkman)
Karen Berger (Vertigo)
Gail Simone (Batgirl, later rehired)
Robert Vendetti (Constantine)
Jim Zubkavich (Birds of Prey)
Art Baltazar (Superman Family Adventures)
Franco (Superman Family Adventures)
Keith GIffen (Legion of Superheroes)
Todd Farmer (Insurgent)
Josh Fialkov (Green Lantern Corps, Red Lanterns)
Andy Diggle (Action Comics)
Tony S. Daniel (Action Comics)
Mike Johnson (Supergirl)
Bruce Timm (DC Animated)
Mico Suayan (Red Hood and the Outlaws)
James Robinson (Earth 2, DC in general)
Kevin Maguire (Justice League 3000)
J.H. Williams III (Batwoman)
W. Haden Blackman (Batwoman)


That's not counting regular creative team changes. They're all changes that came with some degree of controversy. You could maybe make a case for a few of them. All 26 of them? Where there's smoke there's fire.

I have no problem saying there's a) a problem and that b) Bob Harras may be at the core of it. DiDio may be just carrying that guys water/takin the bullet since he was moved upstairs.

That being said, lets really look at you list in the light of "Top Talent Leaving DC". There are guys on this list that you know you can't put in the category of Maguire and Williams.

Was this a place just chock full of JT Krul fans? Todd Farmer? Mike Johnson? LIEFELD????

Spencer is basically in the Marvel circle and I couldn't see him being at DC for long.Simone, Baltazar, Franco, Giffen and Venditti are still with the company and all got bigger assignments. Simone is a case where the brass slapped her editor on the back of the hand.

It's a list alright but the context has to matter. Also there might to be consideration for folks DC gained and I do honestly think you might be missing some folks like Paul Cornell. I'm throwing him in there cuz he's pretty damn good and people didn't read his shit.

[Herald]

I have no problem saying there's a) a problem and that b) Bob Harras may be at the core of it. DiDio may be just carrying that guys water/takin the bullet since he was moved upstairs.

No, Dan's been chasing away talent like Chuck Dixon and PAD well before Harras was hired.

[Doc Midnight]

No, Dan's been chasing away talent like Chuck Dixon and PAD well before Harras was hired.

Yeah...losing PAD...who loves to write for the masses. Dan should be ashamed of himself. I love Dixon though. I'd like him around.

[Draco x]

Yoda's reaction to this:

[Doc Midnight]

All I'm saying is that is that DC is guilty of being too arrogant to hire a decent PR staff to handle these situations. Hence people are posting lists of people who've left DC full of people who made boring comics or current DC employees.

[Draco x]

Quesada was editor of Marvel Knights before he became EIC of Marvel proper. He made characters like Daredevil and the Inhumans viable, or viable again. That proved he had the cred to be in charge. Whereas DiDio had NO experience whatsoever in comics before DC brought him in.

Agreed here as even though Quesada has his flaws he is nowhere as incompetent or inept as Didio. Quesada at his worst will be remembered for crap like Sins Past and One More Day whereas Didio will be remembered for so many fuckups that are too numerous to list here.