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DC's characters don't deserve DC

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Draco x
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Re: DC's characters don't deserve DC

Postby Draco x » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:45 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
And that would be a bad thing because?... :smt017

Seriously, if TW and DC really wanted "cross-branding synergy," they'd have DC, WB Animation, David Goyer, and whoever's spearheading the production of movies featuring DC characters over aw WB, together and create a shared blueprint for the next reboot that would serve as the launching point for the next generation of, animated series, tv shows, etc.

That way, instead of there being six different versions of Superman or Batman over six different media platforms, there's one Superman or Batman whose stories are told over multiple platforms.


But that's the problem, Warner doesn't really give a rat's ass about DC outside of the Batman franchise.

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Re: DC's characters don't deserve DC

Postby Mr. Log » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:01 pm

Zechs wrote:
Hey I withstood the Howard Mackie/John Bryne Era of Spider-Man that was the lowest of the low. JMS and Paul Jenkins brought that character back. Then OMD happened and Pete had to die. Slott has given us the now truly SUPERIOR Spider-Man. :P


I know what you meant, but I was referring to the fact that you wrote "can" instead of "can't" which reverses the idea. "Not even a good writer can save it!" :-D

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Re: DC's characters don't deserve DC

Postby Chessack » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:26 pm

holtom2000 wrote:I know we did this before but we should list characters who were better off before the reboot and those worse of


How far back does one go, though? For example, for some characters, like Supergirl, I'd want to go all the way back to pre-Crisis. For others, like Hawk and Dove or Wonder Woman, I'd want to go back to post-Crisis but pre-all-the-other-events (pre-Armageddon-2001 for H&D, Perez era for Wonder Woman).

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Re: DC's characters don't deserve DC

Postby Pink_Orchid » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:45 pm

In a perfect world the multi-verse would have worked. Keep the groups of characters in their own universes. The Fawcett Earth, Quality, Charlton, etc. Occasional crossovers.

Also in a perfect world, Morrison would have said thanks but no thanks to multiversity 5 years ago when they first announced it. Then they could farm out the stories to different creative teams and let them have at it.

Unfortunately it would be one shots or miniseries. Not many would be able to hold the sales numbers without Batman or Superman attached to the title.

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Re: DC's characters don't deserve DC

Postby Chessack » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:32 pm

I've always thought that the culmination of the Crisis on Infinite Earths should have been a separation of the different universes rather than a merger. Keep them all around, but just stop them crisscrossing over into each other all the time. Then DC could have started a new universe in 1986 after the Crisis, but left intact all the other universes and their stories -- which would have enabled them to put those characters back in print should the need (or fan demand) arise.

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Re: DC's characters don't deserve DC

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:46 pm

Chessack wrote:I've always thought that the culmination of the Crisis on Infinite Earths should have been a separation of the different universes rather than a merger. Keep them all around, but just stop them crisscrossing over into each other all the time. Then DC could have started a new universe in 1986 after the Crisis, but left intact all the other universes and their stories -- which would have enabled them to put those characters back in print should the need (or fan demand) arise.


I think they could do that anyway, if they wanted to. IDW has G.I. Joe: Real American Hero, which picks up from Larry Hama's 80s Marvel GI Joe run, despite the fact that the Devils Due/Image series technically continued the continuity from that for several years before IDW got the license. There was no need for in-story explanations, IDW just said "this picks up from GI Joe #155 from the nineties" and fans accepted it because they wanted that.

A less successful example is Claremont's X-Men Forever, which picked up where he left off when he was first driven from the book in the early nineties. I loved that series, though a lot of people trashed it. But it technically worked. And they made an X-Factor forever too with Louise Simonson.

So if DC wanted to go back and say "here's a book that takes place in the old DCU, ignore Flashpoint and the Nu52 for the purposes of this book," the fans that wanted that would accept it and make it work. If DC wanted to, which they don't.
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Re: DC's characters don't deserve DC

Postby sdsichero » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:57 pm

Zechs wrote:
Nothing a good writer can fix. Look at Spider-Man.


Huh. I like Spider-Man currently. Thought you might too but I guess not.

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Re: DC's characters don't deserve DC

Postby Juan Cena » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:31 pm

Draco x wrote:
But that's the problem, Warner doesn't really give a rat's ass about DC outside of the Batman franchise.


And you miss the point of what I said completely.

The problem is that there's a lack of an integrated infrastructure at Time Warner which would enable the exploitation of characters other than Supes or Bats beyond the current levels.
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Re: DC's characters don't deserve DC

Postby Juan Cena » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:39 pm

Black_Orchid wrote:In a perfect world the multi-verse would have worked. Keep the groups of characters in their own universes. The Fawcett Earth, Quality, Charlton, etc. Occasional crossovers.

Also in a perfect world, Morrison would have said thanks but no thanks to multiversity 5 years ago when they first announced it. Then they could farm out the stories to different creative teams and let them have at it.

Unfortunately it would be one shots or miniseries. Not many would be able to hold the sales numbers without Batman or Superman attached to the title.


Then those characters would end up being even less used than they are now. None of the books set in parallel universes like Shazam! or the All-Star Comics revival survived past the DC Implosion. Shazam! Probably only lasted as long as it did because of the tie-in to the TV show.
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Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."


http://www.shirtswithrandomtriangles.com/

Check out Christmas in Nacirema
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh619160960893481469&shareImp=true#!/stations/play/619160960893481469

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Re: DC's characters don't deserve DC

Postby glasgowceltic » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:26 am

Other than Snyder's BATMAN & Lemires' Animal Man there's just not that much there for me just now. Which is a shame because in my perfect world (and presumably in DC's too) I'd be picking up every Batman & Superman title, JLA etc. and an assortment of other characters I've always liked.

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Re: DC's characters don't deserve DC

Postby Chessack » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:45 am

concreatjungle wrote:in my perfect world (and presumably in DC's too) I'd be picking up every Batman & Superman title, JLA etc. and an assortment of other characters I've always liked.


This.

I was away from comics from 1999-2012. When I started up again, with the New 52, my first instinct was to start with my favorites from years past -- Detective Comics, Action Comics, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, JL. I quickly discovered that most of them were unreadable. The only one I've stuck with is WW, and even that is a pale imitation of what the character once was. (But at least the stories are stand-alone and easy to follow.) I stayed with JL a little longer than some of the others (Detective lasted just the first issue, Action to issue 6, before I couldn't take it any more), but even that's off the pull list now.

On the other hand thanks to ComiXology I have been enjoying digital back-issues from days gone by an awful lot. But that just cements the idea that the DC characters deserve better than the DCnU.

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Re: DC's characters don't deserve DC

Postby Pink_Orchid » Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:15 am

Juan Cena wrote:Then those characters would end up being even less used than they are now. None of the books set in parallel universes like Shazam! or the All-Star Comics revival survived past the DC Implosion. Shazam! Probably only lasted as long as it did because of the tie-in to the TV show.


I know. There are many characters I wouldn't mind keeping in limbo rather than show up in the DCnU. Look at poor Static.

Besides, Johns, Lee, and Didio stirred up the past to get the Silver Age characters back in the lead with gritty '90's looks. Why not dig up the multiverse for different writers to use?

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Re: DC's characters don't deserve DC

Postby Draco x » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:03 pm

Juan Cena wrote:
And you miss the point of what I said completely.

The problem is that there's a lack of an integrated infrastructure at Time Warner which would enable the exploitation of characters other than Supes or Bats beyond the current levels.


Agree with your main statement here. The thing is that if DC, Warner and co put their A-Game together they could really move mountains. They have so many franchises and properties they can use but to choose to sit on them due to incompetence and indifference.

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Re: DC's characters don't deserve DC

Postby Juan Cena » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:51 pm

Black_Orchid wrote:
I know. There are many characters I wouldn't mind keeping in limbo rather than show up in the DCnU. Look at poor Static.

Besides, Johns, Lee, and Didio stirred up the past to get the Silver Age characters back in the lead with gritty '90's looks. Why not dig up the multiverse for different writers to use?


Again, because those books didn't sell well when tried before. The way sales have been trending downward on Earth-2 (and probably will continue to after Robinson leaves).
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- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."


http://www.shirtswithrandomtriangles.com/

Check out Christmas in Nacirema
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh619160960893481469&shareImp=true#!/stations/play/619160960893481469

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Re: DC's characters don't deserve DC

Postby Chessack » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:47 pm

Juan Cena wrote:Again, because those books didn't sell well when tried before. The way sales have been trending downward on Earth-2 (and probably will continue to after Robinson leaves).


To be fair to Earth-2, sales are trending downward across the entire New 52 line with a few exceptions that are able to hold audience (like Snyder's stuff). Just check the trends for sales of Action Comics since #1, or Superman. Some of these titles have lost several times more readers than Earth-2 ever had in total. So it's not clear that the reason Earth-2's sales are trending downward has anything at all to do with it being set in another universe. Also, just how many of the "mainstream universe" titles have gotten the axe since the New 52 began? And how many got the axe on a regular basis before that? "Alternate realities" are not the reason for a series being unpopular. (After all, one of the most popular Marvel series of all time was "What If...?" an entire series based exclusively on the concept of alternate realities.)

DC's fundamental problem right now is, in a nutshell, lack of quality. This is why you see massive sales up front in response to gimmicks like new #1 issues, and then a die-off (sometimes a rapid one).

For example, Action Comics started out selling 180k copies when New 52 came out -- this was the response to the gimmicks: Issue 1 of a series that had been in the 900s before that, so it was the first time most of us could ever get our hands on something called "Action Comics #1", plus Grant Morrison writing. The gimmick got people in the door. But then the quality has to be there to hold them, and it clearly wasn't. By the end of Morrison's run, Action had lost fully 66% of its sales (down to 52k from 180k by issue 19, the month after Morrison left). Sure 52,000 people still liked it, but another 130,000+ people tried it and decided, "this is not worth my money," over the course of time (more than half of them within 5 issues).

If this stuff was any good, more people who tried these series would stick with them. But it isn't, so you have this constant switching from title to title as people get sucked in by the gimmicks but then don't stay past the next couple of issues.

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