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[The Old Doctor]

No it's not. Hawkeye, Thor, DD, Hulk, the X-books, the Avengers books all still good. Nothing has been screwed up

Give it time with the next crossover event.

Agreed, there's still lots of good stuff being done by Marvel that you can just read as a stand alone series.

Sorry Cat, you're a poster i like, but you're not being rational when it comes to this argument.

How is it that I'm being irrational when I say that I hate this crossovers? They are happening and more to come with any successes.
Civil War, Secret Invasion are two examples in which series were screwed up and that has been admitted even by Chap in the past.

How am I wrong with an opinion that the pace of the series is often broken with these crossovers? Prove it.

If you want to show how they are not then you vindicate your viewpoint, but otherwise, you've provided no rational for your own opinion here.

[The Old Doctor]

But that ignores Hawkeye and Daredevil, good examples of books that are on long runs with no crossovers what so ever. Both of which were also recommended by Chap and recommendations I personally agree with.

Feel free to name the other titles out of the rest of Marvel's output that were not affected.

Chap has brought some interesting points, good ones on totality, but not for all or even the majority. But feel free. After all, the past crossovers prove my and Cheesake's points.

[The Old Doctor]

The argument has shifted, though. The question I answered was whether we still had good books or not. I replied we did, and listed the Avengers and X-books. Yes, they are in a crossover right now. If you want to bitch about that forcing you to spend more, that's certainly your right. And it's a different argument. B/c not all crossovers are bad. And, IMMO, crossover or not, those two lines of books right now are still good books. Whereas the DC crossovers have been shit.

Yes. All sound. BUT, not all crossovers are good and in the end, it's how the reader feels as a result. It's not math, it's reaction.

What pisses me off is that now we're getting hit with a number of crossovers all over again. Good, bad... I don't care as I am sick of them being the norm.

One that set me off was catching up on Nova. The opening story read okay and was enjoyable. But then came the crossover. It was handled okay but also left me feeling cheated as here was described a good deal of character development. But not with the title its self. It's a convolution I can do without.

[UnionJack]

How am I wrong with an opinion that the pace of the series is often broken with these crossovers? Prove it.

You're not

I've just picked up, on ebay, Nova 1-7, which I liked the look of. But lo & behold, here comes a crossover before a series has even had a year to establish. Haven't got them yet, so I can't say whether or not the Infinity tie-in is disruptive but I see events as an interference generally. The previous Ms Marvel series was plagued with them in it's first two years. It just couldn't get going.

[Chessack]

Whereas the DC crossovers have been shit.

This we can agree on.

[Chessack]

I've just picked up, on ebay, Nova 1-7, which I liked the look of. But lo & behold, here comes a crossover before a series has even had a year to establish. Haven't got them yet, so I can't say whether or not the Infinity tie-in is disruptive but I see events as an interference generally. The previous Ms Marvel series was plagued with them in it's first two years. It just couldn't get going.

I completely agree with you.

With DC pissing me off, I have been planning to divest myself of DC titles and replace with non-DC. I have in the past heard good things about Nova and Captain Marvel. I toyed with picking them up to replace books like JLA and JL. Then I saw that both Nova and Captain Marvel were getting these "crossover tie-ins" already, and I decided to never mind.

I think both Jack and Cat have good points here, that a crossover knocks the series off its stride, and if there are too many of them, too early, the series never can get its stride started. Crossovers used to be the rare exception to the rule, the fun "bonus" that we got to read every once in a while. Now they are the norm, and we have to go out of our way to name the rare "stand alone" books. Notice that? Yeah.. that's part of the problem.

[Stephen Day]

Feel free to name the other titles out of the rest of Marvel's output that were not affected

FF, Fantastic Four, Uncanny Avengers (sure it started out of a crossover, but since then we're a year in an no crossovers), I could continue. And I'm not arguing against your assertation that crossovers break up the flow of a series' story. Hence why I didn't respond until the post I actually responded to. In that post you seemed to be implying that Marvel having crossovers in Avengers and X-Men is going to screw up their entire line. If that's not what you were saying than I apologize, but that's how that post came across.

[Stephen Day]

I'll also add Secret Avengers and Captain America to my list. Cap in particular has gone years now (at least 2 or 3) with no crossovers.

[The Old Doctor]

FF, Fantastic Four, Uncanny Avengers (sure it started out of a crossover, but since then we're a year in an no crossovers), I could continue. And I'm not arguing against your assertation that crossovers break up the flow of a series' story. Hence why I didn't respond until the post I actually responded to. In that post you seemed to be implying that Marvel having crossovers in Avengers and X-Men is going to screw up their entire line. If that's not what you were saying than I apologize, but that's how that post came across.

Apology accepted.

Those crossovers could be good, or crap and I suspect more crap given the history of crossover events, more so in retrospect. But again that's all a personal take on how they hit the reader at the time.

As said, I hate the disruptive nature of the things. Even when they're been good, it's annoying to see something flash by, suck in the character(s) and either kill or trip up the existing pace of a title and sometimes, disrupt the development. Hell, most seem to do nothing for defining the character or even an aspect or more about them. There is no real profit in story telling I think with them. Some had potential but then.. never followed through with or just not workable in the end. Secret Invasion had a way to either resurrect characters or bring something a little more probable with them. But ultimately never really did.

With the things come back into vogue for Marvel and DC after barely any real break... it annoys the hell out of me. I know they can produce amazing comic series and not need this sort of silly/stupid attempt to draw interest. Really, I see these as being far more marketing driven then truly story driven.

The only good crossover event to me - COIE. Why? DC rewrote their over all continuity. Yes they left a lot alone, but they did alter it and even if it took them a decade or more, the result was a new dynamic. One they really struggled with given the decisions on what to do with all the existing continuity.

SPEAKING OFF those three titles you mentioned - I just got caught up with FF and have to say it's disappointing. Allred's artwork has changed and some of the issues were really a mess with the story. Fantastic Four I still need to catch up on and it's good to hear that it's good. Uncanny Avengers I'm caught up on and honestly... it worked better with the slick art, then without. It seems to be stuck in a loop with no real progress. Like the concept, but the execution is a bit sloppy.

[The Old Doctor]

I'll also add Secret Avengers and Captain America to my list. Cap in particular has gone years now (at least 2 or 3) with no crossovers.

Cap I'm caught up on. Not bad stuff, but really not sure I like where they're trying to go. Last decade, Cap was THE super-hero comic. Even with all the damage done by crossovers and events.

Also note... no crossovers equals...

[Chessack]

I completely agree with Cat. It's the disruptive nature of the crossover that bugs me the most. If I'm reading a series, it's always because I like the overall narrative of that series. I like the direction of the book, the way the characters interact, etc. A crossover comes in and tramples all over that, destroying all the things that I liked about the series in the first place. Often for months at a time.

[S.F. Jude Terror]

I will say that Battle of the Atom doesn't feel disruptive because the stories of the X books as a whole have led to this pretty naturally. However, I read all of them anyway so it works very nicely for me. I dropped all the Batman books with Death in the Family because I wasn't reading them all and hated having to read issues of books I wasn't already reading to get the full story.

I am reading most of the books Infinity ties in with, but it still annoys the shit out of me because all of the books are relegated to bonus stories for the duration.

[Arion]

I'll also add Secret Avengers and Captain America to my list. Cap in particular has gone years now (at least 2 or 3) with no crossovers.

What about the Fear Itself tie ins?

[Stephen Day]

What about the Fear Itself tie ins?

Ah shoot, I forgot about those.

[SuperginraiX]

What about the Fear Itself tie ins?

I remember Secret Avengers crossing over with Fear Itself but I don't believe Captain America's title did. Granted, I've spent a lot of time trying to forget that event. A lot of time.










Dammit! Why did Steve Rogers jump out of that damn helicarrier in issue #3!?