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I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Arion » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:59 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:I will say that Battle of the Atom doesn't feel disruptive because the stories of the X books as a whole have led to this pretty naturally. However, I read all of them anyway so it works very nicely for me. I dropped all the Batman books with Death in the Family because I wasn't reading them all and hated having to read issues of books I wasn't already reading to get the full story.

I am reading most of the books Infinity ties in with, but it still annoys the shit out of me because all of the books are relegated to bonus stories for the duration.


I'll be reading Battle of the Atom chapter 1 probably next week

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Chessack » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:27 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:I will say that Battle of the Atom doesn't feel disruptive because the stories of the X books as a whole have led to this pretty naturally. However, I read all of them anyway so it works very nicely for me. I dropped all the Batman books with Death in the Family because I wasn't reading them all and hated having to read issues of books I wasn't already reading to get the full story.


I think this is one of the most annoying things about the "families" of books. Marvel assumes all people who read one X-book, read them all. Back when X-factor first started years ago, I read only that. I hated what Claremont was doing on X-men at the time, and I never did like New Mutants, so I only read X-Factor. And for a couple of years it was stand-alone. But then Marvel decided that all the X-books should cross over pretty much all the time, and that main characters should swap back and forth across the different books, and after that you basically had to read all the X-books (which by then included also X-Force, Wolverine, and probably others I'm forgetting).

And as you say with the Bat-titles, it's the same. DC seems to assume that just because I read Batgirl, it means I also read... Nightwing, Red Hood, Batman Inc, Batman, Dark Knight, Detective Comics, Batwoman, Catwoman, and Batman and Fill-In-The-Blank. I want to tell them... Dude, even if I had unlimited funds, there is no way --No. Effing. Way. -- I am going to read 8-10 titles about the same character every month. I don't think I'd even read 10 titles about Supergirl every month, and I like her WAY better than I like Batman.

My comic-shop owner seems to have the same mentality. When I complained about VM and all the damn events and crossovers he said, "What events and crossovers? This is the first one DC has really done since 2 years ago with the New 52." When I rattled them off... H'el, Death, Throne of Atlantis... he said, "Well those are all within a family, so they're not really crossovers. DC just assumes if you read one, you read them all. And I have to tell you, most people do."

I guess this was just his way of telling me that I'm weird. :) But I do not, and have not EVER, collected large numbers of books about one character or set of characters. I like VARIETY in my pull list, and I'm not going to just expand it out to infinity. I'm fine reading one bat-book, maybe two. But 10, 12, 15? Um... no.

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Arion » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:29 pm

Funny you should say that. X-Factor is the only X title I've been buying from the past 7 years or so. I never read anything else, and even when there have been crossovers that hasn't changed my mind.

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Chessack » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:33 pm

Arion wrote:Funny you should say that. X-Factor is the only X title I've been buying from the past 7 years or so. I never read anything else, and even when there have been crossovers that hasn't changed my mind.


Well, the X-Factors I'm talking about are the originals, circa 1987, by Simonson and Simonson. I have no idea what's been happening with Marvel since about 1990 when I gave up on Marvel entirely (although I am reading Thor God of Thunder now... but it's the only Marvel thing I've read since 1990).

But back in those days, the X-men were in Australia and presumed dead, I have no idea what New Mutants were doing, and X-Factor was the only X-comic still based in NYC and with characters in the public eye.

Then they did the whole S'ym/Madeline Pryor/Illyana thing, and it ended up crossing all the titles into each other, and once that was over, they started playing musical rosters. That's when I quit the X-books completely. And the next year, I think it was, the X-stuff bled over into the few other Marvels I was reading like Avengers, and I finally gave up on Marvel for good at that point.

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby The Old Doctor » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:54 pm

Chessack wrote:
I think this is one of the most annoying things about the "families" of books. Marvel assumes all people who read one X-book, read them all. Back when X-factor first started years ago, I read only that. I hated what Claremont was doing on X-men at the time, and I never did like New Mutants, so I only read X-Factor. And for a couple of years it was stand-alone. But then Marvel decided that all the X-books should cross over pretty much all the time, and that main characters should swap back and forth across the different books, and after that you basically had to read all the X-books (which by then included also X-Force, Wolverine, and probably others I'm forgetting).

And as you say with the Bat-titles, it's the same. DC seems to assume that just because I read Batgirl, it means I also read... Nightwing, Red Hood, Batman Inc, Batman, Dark Knight, Detective Comics, Batwoman, Catwoman, and Batman and Fill-In-The-Blank. I want to tell them... Dude, even if I had unlimited funds, there is no way --No. Effing. Way. -- I am going to read 8-10 titles about the same character every month. I don't think I'd even read 10 titles about Supergirl every month, and I like her WAY better than I like Batman.

My comic-shop owner seems to have the same mentality. When I complained about VM and all the damn events and crossovers he said, "What events and crossovers? This is the first one DC has really done since 2 years ago with the New 52." When I rattled them off... H'el, Death, Throne of Atlantis... he said, "Well those are all within a family, so they're not really crossovers. DC just assumes if you read one, you read them all. And I have to tell you, most people do."

I guess this was just his way of telling me that I'm weird. :) But I do not, and have not EVER, collected large numbers of books about one character or set of characters. I like VARIETY in my pull list, and I'm not going to just expand it out to infinity. I'm fine reading one bat-book, maybe two. But 10, 12, 15? Um... no.



Really? I thought was and still do think that that was Claremont's best work and when that title was at it's best.

Also, I must pass my Claremont Hater sash to you. I appear to have been replaced. :wink: :lol:
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols."
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IvCNuB4 wrote:The Old Doctor is Cat-Scratch ?
Well that explains a lot :lol:

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Chessack » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:25 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:Really? I thought was and still do think that that was Claremont's best work and when that title was at it's best.

Also, I must pass my Claremont Hater sash to you. I appear to have been replaced. :wink: :lol:


I don't hate Claremont. I liked Claremont when he was paired with Byrne and Smith. When Romita came in, (a) I can't stand Romita's art style -- never could, and (b) the stories started to go down in quality. I also despised the mohawk Storm who became violent (I liked her original pure heart), and the whole S'ym/demon/Illyana thing was just not for me.

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Arion » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:15 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:

Really? I thought was and still do think that that was Claremont's best work and when that title was at it's best.

Also, I must pass my Claremont Hater sash to you. I appear to have been replaced. :wink: :lol:


New Mutants is one of my favorite Marvel titles from that era. I think Claremont did a remarkable job with these youngsters. Besides if I love Cypher / Doug Ramsey so much it's because of Claremont & Arthur Adams .

Chessack wrote:
Well, the X-Factors I'm talking about are the originals, circa 1987, by Simonson and Simonson. I have no idea what's been happening with Marvel since about 1990 when I gave up on Marvel entirely (although I am reading Thor God of Thunder now... but it's the only Marvel thing I've read since 1990).

But back in those days, the X-men were in Australia and presumed dead, I have no idea what New Mutants were doing, and X-Factor was the only X-comic still based in NYC and with characters in the public eye.

Then they did the whole S'ym/Madeline Pryor/Illyana thing, and it ended up crossing all the titles into each other, and once that was over, they started playing musical rosters. That's when I quit the X-books completely. And the next year, I think it was, the X-stuff bled over into the few other Marvels I was reading like Avengers, and I finally gave up on Marvel for good at that point.


Oh, I've never read the classic X-Factor. I've read a few random issues from the 90s but that's when Peter David was the writer.
Thor God of Thunder has been amazing, hasn't it? I've read issues 1 & 2 and I really enjoyed them.

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Chessack » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:49 pm

Arion wrote:Thor God of Thunder has been amazing, hasn't it? I've read issues 1 & 2 and I really enjoyed them.


What are you waiting for?? It just gets better every issue. :)

I haven't read 13 yet (I will get to it this weekend) but so far issue 12 is the best of the series, and one of the best issues of any series this year, I think. The writing on Thor is up there with Astro City and Lazarus as probably the best-written series I am reading right now.

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby SuperginraiX » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:52 am

Arion wrote:
New Mutants is one of my favorite Marvel titles from that era. I think Claremont did a remarkable job with these youngsters. Besides if I love Cypher / Doug Ramsey so much it's because of Claremont & Arthur Adams .



Oh, I've never read the classic X-Factor. I've read a few random issues from the 90s but that's when Peter David was the writer.
Thor God of Thunder has been amazing, hasn't it? I've read issues 1 & 2 and I really enjoyed them.

I really enjoyed the Simonson issues of X-Factor. Louise tried her DAMNDEST to make Cyclops a likeable character after Stern had him leave his wife and newborn child. And Walt Simonson's art is always awesome.


Seriously, if I could retcon one thing out of existance, it would probably be Scott leaving Maddy and Christopher (or Nathan--- or whatever). That was one of those completely assholish things that should never have happened but has now gone a long ways to define Cyclops as a character. Because editorial needed Cyclops but not his family baggage. :|
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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby john lewis hawk » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:59 am

You guys who criticize crossovers involving titles you don't like do realize that you're on the internet where you can just look up spoilers (or even just download the issue) for free, right?

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Chessack » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:59 am

john lewis hawk wrote:You guys who criticize crossovers involving titles you don't like do realize that you're on the internet where you can just look up spoilers (or even just download the issue) for free, right?


Of course we realize that.

But you have to remember, many of us "old schoolers" have a hate of crossovers that is ingrained from years past. In 1988 you couldn't go onto the internet and look up spoilers (at least, not very easily, as most people did not have internet connections yet).

Beyond that, the ability to look up other parts of a story that crosses into 11 other titles doesn't change the fact that (a) that story has totally derailed the comic-book series we are trying to follow and enjoy, messing up all the plot elements specific to that series that attracted us to it in the first place, and (b) the crossover story is probably a load of dreck.

When I follow a series, it's because I like the characters and the narrative of that series. Crossovers completely destroy the momentum of a series. And repeated crossovers prevent momentum from ever occurring, like the current Supergirl series, which had some momentum after the first arc or two, and then got completely derailed by H'el and has so far never gotten its momentum back. The fact that I can go online and read the other parts of "Krypton Returns" that I'm not going to buy doesn't give the Girl of Steel her momentum back. Nor does it prevent me from having to read some crap writing by Lobedell, who is in charge of the crossover and is even writing the November issue of Supergirl (unless I want to miss that issue entirely, which is also not an attractive option).

You know this whole discussion of crossovers reminds me of a game design argument from my MMO days a couple of years ago. One of the MMOs I was playing introduced this really horribly implemented feature that some people liked, but most people hated. There was a firestorm of complaints about it from those who hated it. One of the people who liked the feature said to those who don't, "You know you can turn it off, right? If you dislike it that much, just disable it." One of the other players responded by saying, "The big selling point of a feature shouldn't be that you can turn it off."

The same thing holds true here. The big selling point of a crossover shouldn't be that you can ignore it if you want.

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby SuperginraiX » Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:37 am

I actually like crossovers and mega-events. Generally speaking. But I regret doing those massive Super Reads for Fear Itself and AvX. I made myself read everything and then write about it. That's a recipe for burning the F out on comics.

Which is what happened. :smt102
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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Arion » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:16 pm

SuperginraiX wrote:I really enjoyed the Simonson issues of X-Factor. Louise tried her DAMNDEST to make Cyclops a likeable character after Stern had him leave his wife and newborn child. And Walt Simonson's art is always awesome.


Seriously, if I could retcon one thing out of existance, it would probably be Scott leaving Maddy and Christopher (or Nathan--- or whatever). That was one of those completely assholish things that should never have happened but has now gone a long ways to define Cyclops as a character. Because editorial needed Cyclops but not his family baggage. :|


I haven't read any of it. I only know of Madelyne Prior's existence because the character showed up in an X-Men trade paperback I had. Nathan is supposed to be Cable or X-Man?

Chessack wrote:
What are you waiting for?? It just gets better every issue. :)

I haven't read 13 yet (I will get to it this weekend) but so far issue 12 is the best of the series, and one of the best issues of any series this year, I think. The writing on Thor is up there with Astro City and Lazarus as probably the best-written series I am reading right now.


I'm waiting to get some money.
I want to complete at least the first arc, but since I didn't preorder Thor I'm afraid I'll have to pay full cover price if I want to get the back issues.

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Chessack » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:21 pm

Arion wrote:I haven't read any of it. I only know of Madelyne Prior's existence because the character showed up in an X-Men trade paperback I had. Nathan is supposed to be Cable or X-Man?


The full story (as best as my rusty brain can remember it, since I have not read these in 25 or so years) is this:

  1. Jean Grey the telekinetic/telepath falls in love with Scott Summers, the stiff boy-scout. Eventually he reciprocates. After a long period of tap-dancing around, they become bf/gf.
  2. After the "New" X-men (following Giant-Size X-Men #1, when the team was reinvented) came along, at one point the team is in a space shuttle-type ship hurtling toward earth, lethal cosmic rays are bombarding it, and they aren't going to make it. Jean makes them all get into the shielded part of the shuttle, and she stays out in the cockpit using her TK shield to protect herself. But it's not enough and it kills her.
  3. However, the Phoenix Force merges with her (I can't remember exactly why/how), and since Phoenix is a rebirth paradigm, Jean is reborn "from the ashes" as Phoenix. She becomes massively more powerful (basically, the most powerful mutant on earth at this point).
  4. Power corrupts, so Jean turns evil. Dark Phoenix saga ensues. She kills a world full of innocents. The Shi'ar empire convicts her of murder and sentences her to death. The X-Men battle the Shi'ar to save Jean's life, but she realizes she is a threat and commits suicide.
  5. Scott is devastated. After some on-again off-again with the team, he leaves. He meets a lovely redheaded woman named Madelyne Pryor who likes *exactly* like Jean Grey.
  6. Eventually Scott falls in love with Madelyne, though it is always a question of whether he really loves her, or the memory of Jean.
  7. As part of the days of future past/past of future days storyline, an alternate timeline exists where Jean and Scott had a daughter, Rachael. She ends up crossing into the main timeline. The Phoenix force departs from the moon and merges with Rachael, who now (sort of) becomes Phoenix II. This part I'm a little foggy on because it happened in one of the books I was not reading (probably New Mutants, or maybe X-men during one of my "I'm not reading X-men" periods -- these happened a lot).
  8. During this period, Scott and Madelylne have a kid. I'm foggy on the details because I was not reading X-men at this time. But at some point Scott leaves her. This is mostly a device because of...
  9. Meanwhile, fans kept clamoring to have Jean Grey back. Eventually Marvel gave in. During a period when the current X-men are not around (in Australia, I think), the Avengers find a cocoon under the water back at the original crash site of the ship that Jean had died and been reborn in. Inside the cocoon is... Jean Grey.
  10. The original X-Men, now members of other teams like Avengers, re-form the same team as the original X-men - Cyclops, Ice Man, Beast, Angel, and of course, Marvel Girl/Jean Grey. This is the reason why Scott had to leave Madelyne. They had to get the original X-Men back together and Madelyne would have been "in the way" of that.
  11. Eventually, it is explained that Jean never became Phoenix. Instead, she was on the shuttle, dying right before the crash, her body riddled with radiation. The Phoenix force showed up and offered to save her. It would put her in a cocoon and she would heal over some years in suspended animation. In return, Phoenix got to "become human", taking Jean's form and memories, and basically "pretending" to be her. That simulacrum of Jean is the one who turned dark, killed worlds, etc.
  12. It is also revealed that Madelyne Pryor is a clone of Jean Grey. However, I can't remember if she's a clone of the original Jean, or of the Phoenix-copy Jean. Someone can surely fill that detail in for me. Either way, it keeps being hinted that Madelyne has some power too, possibly even Phoenix power (though Rachael at this time, I think, also has some Phoenix power, though apparently not all -- she was not as powerful as the original Phoenix-Jean character).
  13. Madelyne wants Scott back (and her son -- at some point Scott got hold of the kid), and makes a deal with S'ym, Mr. Sinister, and some other demons. This leads into the crossover I was talking about. I think it may have been called "Inferno" but I'm not sure.

I won't even get into what was going on with Illyana Rasputin and the limbo demons at the time. I've tried to completely erase that part of my memory.

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Arion » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:54 pm

Chessack wrote:
The full story (as best as my rusty brain can remember it, since I have not read these in 25 or so years) is this:

  1. Jean Grey the telekinetic/telepath falls in love with Scott Summers, the stiff boy-scout. Eventually he reciprocates. After a long period of tap-dancing around, they become bf/gf.
  2. After the "New" X-men (following Giant-Size X-Men #1, when the team was reinvented) came along, at one point the team is in a space shuttle-type ship hurtling toward earth, lethal cosmic rays are bombarding it, and they aren't going to make it. Jean makes them all get into the shielded part of the shuttle, and she stays out in the cockpit using her TK shield to protect herself. But it's not enough and it kills her.
  3. However, the Phoenix Force merges with her (I can't remember exactly why/how), and since Phoenix is a rebirth paradigm, Jean is reborn "from the ashes" as Phoenix. She becomes massively more powerful (basically, the most powerful mutant on earth at this point).
  4. Power corrupts, so Jean turns evil. Dark Phoenix saga ensues. She kills a world full of innocents. The Shi'ar empire convicts her of murder and sentences her to death. The X-Men battle the Shi'ar to save Jean's life, but she realizes she is a threat and commits suicide.
  5. Scott is devastated. After some on-again off-again with the team, he leaves. He meets a lovely redheaded woman named Madelyne Pryor who likes *exactly* like Jean Grey.
  6. Eventually Scott falls in love with Madelyne, though it is always a question of whether he really loves her, or the memory of Jean.
  7. As part of the days of future past/past of future days storyline, an alternate timeline exists where Jean and Scott had a daughter, Rachael. She ends up crossing into the main timeline. The Phoenix force departs from the moon and merges with Rachael, who now (sort of) becomes Phoenix II. This part I'm a little foggy on because it happened in one of the books I was not reading (probably New Mutants, or maybe X-men during one of my "I'm not reading X-men" periods -- these happened a lot).
  8. During this period, Scott and Madelylne have a kid. I'm foggy on the details because I was not reading X-men at this time. But at some point Scott leaves her. This is mostly a device because of...
  9. Meanwhile, fans kept clamoring to have Jean Grey back. Eventually Marvel gave in. During a period when the current X-men are not around (in Australia, I think), the Avengers find a cocoon under the water back at the original crash site of the ship that Jean had died and been reborn in. Inside the cocoon is... Jean Grey.
  10. The original X-Men, now members of other teams like Avengers, re-form the same team as the original X-men - Cyclops, Ice Man, Beast, Angel, and of course, Marvel Girl/Jean Grey. This is the reason why Scott had to leave Madelyne. They had to get the original X-Men back together and Madelyne would have been "in the way" of that.
  11. Eventually, it is explained that Jean never became Phoenix. Instead, she was on the shuttle, dying right before the crash, her body riddled with radiation. The Phoenix force showed up and offered to save her. It would put her in a cocoon and she would heal over some years in suspended animation. In return, Phoenix got to "become human", taking Jean's form and memories, and basically "pretending" to be her. That simulacrum of Jean is the one who turned dark, killed worlds, etc.
  12. It is also revealed that Madelyne Pryor is a clone of Jean Grey. However, I can't remember if she's a clone of the original Jean, or of the Phoenix-copy Jean. Someone can surely fill that detail in for me. Either way, it keeps being hinted that Madelyne has some power too, possibly even Phoenix power (though Rachael at this time, I think, also has some Phoenix power, though apparently not all -- she was not as powerful as the original Phoenix-Jean character).
  13. Madelyne wants Scott back (and her son -- at some point Scott got hold of the kid), and makes a deal with S'ym, Mr. Sinister, and some other demons. This leads into the crossover I was talking about. I think it may have been called "Inferno" but I'm not sure.

I won't even get into what was going on with Illyana Rasputin and the limbo demons at the time. I've tried to completely erase that part of my memory.


I've read some of Lee & Kirby's X-Men, some of the Cockrum's X-Men and most of Byrne's run in X-Men and FF. So I'm familiar with the entire Jean cocoon thing. What I never read was Scott and Madelyne having a child. I do remember Rachel though. Seems all a bit convoluted, though. Do you think Marvel started to make editorial mistakes around this era?

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