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Daredevil #33 (The devil you say Spoilers)

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Re: Daredevil #33 (The devil you say Spoilers)

Postby Cas » Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:32 pm

Chris wrote:I also liked DD facing off against the Mole Man earlier in Waid's run. This has been a great change of pace run, coming off the gritty and depressing last decade or so the character has had.

And I say that as someone who only gave it a chance because of the strong creative team, but who was skeptical because I was such a massive fan of the Bendis and Brubaker runs.

Yep. It was cool to have DD fighting villains of the other heroes and how he, whose powers are innocuous, would defeat those who are usually taken down by more physically powerful heroes.

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Re: Daredevil #33 (The devil you say Spoilers)

Postby Cas » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:08 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:I just read this last night and loved this issue. It's pure insanity to not enjoy this arc.

Insanity? This issue was insanity!

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Re: Daredevil #33 (The devil you say Spoilers)

Postby Chicanery » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:12 pm

Bloody hell A.R.P., it's called fun., try having some. It's a comic about a guy with magic radar senses, who dresses as a bright red devil and uses kung fu to fight against a guy on metal stilts. Stop taking things so seriously.

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Re: Daredevil #33 (The devil you say Spoilers)

Postby Cas » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:40 pm

Fun is fine and welcome but that's not to say that still can't be had (and has been) with a little more seriousness and sense as opposed to the contrivances and needless, incongruous characters this arc has featured thus far.

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Re: Daredevil #33 (The devil you say Spoilers)

Postby Stephen Day » Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:05 pm

I really liked this issue. I loved the fact that Daredevil's blindness allowed him to access the cabin where others couldn't because they could see.
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Re: Daredevil #33 (The devil you say Spoilers)

Postby MikeinLA » Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:54 pm

I didn't mind Daredevil getting shot at all. Its a reminder that for all his enhanced senses, the guy is just a costumed acrobat, and that every time he goes out there to fight crime he's taking a huge risk.

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Re: Daredevil #33 (The devil you say Spoilers)

Postby Cas » Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:38 pm

If it was that easy to shoot him he wouldn't have been doing this for very long.

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Re: Daredevil #33 (The devil you say Spoilers)

Postby chap22 » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:50 pm

A.R.P. wrote:
If wanted to stories about characters like that (and I really don't) I'll go get another comic that deals in that kind preposterousness. That what the rest of the MU is for.

Those stories you mentioned are BY FAR some the THE WORSE stories ever put to print, all the more exacerbated since they were (and HATE to say these next few words) in a DD comic. They were absolutely horrendous on every conceivable level of creativity and should have served as a lesson of what NOT TO EVER DO in a DD comic again. Clearly, and very unfortunately, this little romp in Kentucky says the lesson has been ignored, however.

I've said this before, but I'll repeat myself again:

You cray-cray. Nocenti's road trip to Hell stuff was fantastic.

And even if it wasn't (but it was), it is FAR from the worst stories ever. Hell, just look at the entirety of Shadowland, the large majority of Chichester's run, or pretty much all of Bendis's crap ( ;) ) for stuff that was worse than her run.

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Re: Daredevil #33 (The devil you say Spoilers)

Postby Cas » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:22 pm

chap22 wrote:I've said this before, but I'll repeat myself again:

You cray-cray. Nocenti's road trip to Hell stuff was fantastic.

F*ck and NO. Those pages should be turned to ashes and expunged from existence.

And even if it wasn't (but it was), it is FAR from the worst stories ever. Hell, just look at the entirety of Shadowland, the large majority of Chichester's run

Yes, those were just as abhorrent but hardly any worse. Shadowland, however, is quite tragic since was a really cool concept utterly squandered and turned to sh*t.

or pretty much all of Bendis's crap ( ;) ) for stuff that was worse than her run.

:smt011 You truly know not what you say. That run is simply magnificent.

So I take it you've been enjoying this arc with its unnecessary and ruinous inclusion of zombies, werewolves, monsters, and all?

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Re: Daredevil #33 (The devil you say Spoilers)

Postby chap22 » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:43 pm

A.R.P. wrote:F*ck and NO. Those pages should be turned to ashes and expunged from existence.


Yes, those were just as abhorrent but hardly any worse. Shadowland, however, is quite tragic since was a really cool concept utterly squandered and turned to sh*t.


:smt011 You truly know not what you say. That run is simply magnificent.

So I take it you've been enjoying this arc with its unnecessary and ruinous inclusion of zombies, werewolves, monsters, and all?

of course I have.

1) it's Waid. the man has never failed to disappoint me on anything.

2) it's the Legion of freaking Monsters. those dudes should make a gratuitous guest-appearance in every book in Marvel's stable AFAIC

3) and in all seriousness, I see nothing unnecessary, ruinous or wrong in any way about their inclusion. Waid wants to tell a fish-out-of-water story that involves DD and the supernatural, or at least a bad guy (or bad guys in the SoS) who wants to invoke the supernatural. I have no problem with that story, and I have no problem with those haracters' inclusion as (a small) part of it. unlike you, apparently, I have no problem with DD getting away from fighting Kingpin or Bullseye or the Hand for the nth-billion time and facing something out of his normal wheelhouse that he is unfamiliar with and/or uncomfortable facing. I have no problem with taking the devil motif a step farther. i have no problem with a temporary road-trip. as indicated above, I wholeheartedly loved Nocenti's stuff...she took Matt from as "grim-n-gritty" as he's ever been with foes like Bullet and Typhoid and Bushwhacker, etc to as out-there as he's ever been, "fighting" the literal devil in Hell, only to come right back to handing Bullseye his ass in Hell's Kitchen again. there's room for all of that, and so long as you tell it well, or tell it in an entertaining way, and make it make sense in a logical way...there's nothing wrong with that. Waid's doing that...his run isn't (and really has never been) about the guest-stars or plots, it's about using that stuff to show different aspect of Matt's "powers", his persona as DD, his relationships with those around him. he mixes one or two neat little bits that look at him and/or his abilities in a new light in every issue, and frankly, after basically a decade of writers who seemed to completely forget Matt had these senses and/or any creativity/ingenuity in using them, that's a more-than-welcome change IMO. I loved this issue, and I've loved this arc, and I've loved this entire run. it's already easily in my top 3 DD runs of all time, and could move up to 2 by the time all is said and done.
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Re: Daredevil #33 (The devil you say Spoilers)

Postby Cas » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:10 pm

So you're open to DD just becoming another galavanting superhero who tackles all the absurdities the MU has to offer and in the process lose his distinctiveness and becoming Spider-Man-lite? Sure, I can sort of get that (no, I honestly can't since you have Spidey himself and the rest of the MU for that and that is essentially what DD was like before Frank Miller resuscitated the character and gave him new, seminal life) but what I liked best and thought worked best and perfectly with DD (and rightfully so did FM, apparently) than most other superheroes is how grounded and real his world is despite being in the MU, and even then when pieces of the MU would leak in it worked. I don't know how to put it exactly, but there has to be line in the proverbial sand of the MU that DD doesn't and shouldn't cross and the Legion of Monsters, Nocenti's entire run, etc, exemplify that line. SoS works and works well enough. Notice I haven't criticized their inclusion. And notice that I haven't mentioned Waid's run as whole because despite his lighter tone he seemed to get where that line is with the exception of these most recent couple issues where he, unfortunately and surprisingly, completely leapt over it. If you enjoy what Waids been doing these past two issues, I guess it's fine (although it's not). But characters like the LoM don't belong in a DD comic. In a Spidey comic? Sure. DD should remain in the steel canyons of NY fighting cool villains who don't necessarily have to be Kingpin (who is sorely missed, BTW) and Bullseye (who I don't particularly like and should be given a long, long, long, long, long hiatus).

Admittedly, DD needs, and desperately so, some new villians and I hoped that'd be more of a focus of this run continuing on instead of throwing in characters that have no place. Ikari, while unoriginal as can be, was at least a step. They should have kept in that direction with this arc. The SoS work, though, I must say.

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Re: Daredevil #33 (The devil you say Spoilers)

Postby chap22 » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:02 pm

A.R.P. wrote:So you're open to DD just becoming another galavanting superhero who tackles all the absurdities the MU has to offer and in the process lose his distinctiveness and becoming Spider-Man-lite? Sure, I can sort of get that (no, I honestly can't since you have Spidey himself and the rest of the MU for that and that is essentially what DD was like before Frank Miller resuscitated the character and gave him new, seminal life) but what I liked best and thought worked best and perfectly with DD (and rightfully so did FM, apparently) than most other superheroes is how grounded and real his world is despite being in the MU, and even then when pieces of the MU would leak in it worked.

actually, I am. because I cannot begin to tell you how tired I was by the end of Shadowland of what seemed to be every writer for the last decade plus's attitude of "yeah, Matt's grounded...in other words, let's shit on him and shit on him and shit on him and shit on him with no real wins or signs of light until he fucking cracks like an eggshell, JUST LIKE FRANK DID IT BACK IN THE LATE 70s/EARLY 80s", when none of them seemed to realize that even at the end of Born Again, Frank gave DD a happy fucking ending. reading Bendis's run felt like torture porn to me, to the point where I really just wished Stilt-Man or somebody would luck up and kill him just to put him out of his misery. it's one thing to tear a hero down to build them back up...it's wholly another to just tear them down. if "un-grounding" DD is what it takes to get even a little of the swashbuckler back, then I am all fucking for it.

I don't know how to put it exactly, but there has to be line in the proverbial sand of the MU that DD doesn't and shouldn't cross and the Legion of Monsters, Nocenti's entire run, etc, exemplify that line.


but why should he just be pigeonholed into being "the grounded superhero" ALL THE TIME? variety is the spice of life...mix it up some. I have loved seeing stuff like Hank Pym, Doc Strange, the Surfer, and the LoM in this book b/c it is so far out there from Matt's normal wheelhouse. too much of the same stuff gets repetitive and boring. Matt lives in a big, big world full of strange shit, it's only natural that every once in a while that strangeness intrudes on his world. especially now that he's also palled around with the Avengers. setting a line in the sand is stupid, IMO...these are comic books. they're supposed to be escapism and flights of fancy and weird and trippy and fun and all that. arbitrarily self-limiting yourself in what kind of stories you can or "should" tell is absurd.

SoS works and works well enough. Notice I haven't criticized their inclusion. And notice that I haven't mentioned Waid's run as whole because despite his lighter tone he seemed to get where that line is with the exception of these most recent couple issues where he, unfortunately and surprisingly, completely leapt over it. If you enjoy what Waids been doing these past two issues, I guess it's fine (although it's not). But characters like the LoM don't belong in a DD comic. In a Spidey comic? Sure. DD should remain in the steel canyons of NY fighting cool villains who don't necessarily have to be Kingpin (who is sorely missed, BTW) and Bullseye (who I don't particularly like and should be given a long, long, long, long, long hiatus).


belong, shmelong, the LoM are a 2-issue guest-star. and even then, they flow naturally from the story. you yourself say you have no problem with the SoS. well, Waid's using them in a way that makes total sense (infiltrating NYC politics/administration) to achieve their long-standing ideological goals (race war, etc.) in a way that only DD/Matt would catch on. perfectly logical. Waid then also goes a step further and explores the history/methodology of the SoS in away no one else ever has, adding depth and backstory to the group, likening/linking them to a cult which worships the devil. again, if for thematic/motif purposes only, this also links logically to DD. then you start to explore that idea, in a larger universe which includes monsters and sorcerors supreme and evil tomes like the Darkhold, and it again makes logical sense that the SoS, or at least fringe followers of same, would try to use that tome to increase their power/further their schemes. and from there, since DD's trying to stop them, it makes sense he might run into some of those other Marvel U denizens who inhabit that milieu.

it may not fit your narrow definition of what a DD story should be, but that doesn't make it bad, or unnecessary, or "over the line". it's a fun story which highlights some of what makes DD DD, and adds new insights to him and his world, all while at heart staying true to what it is he does. just because it is a little more fantastical set of surroundings doesn't make it any less a viable DD tale.
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Re: Daredevil #33 (The devil you say Spoilers)

Postby 3MJ » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:11 pm

IMO...these are comic books. they're supposed to be escapism and flights of fancy and weird and trippy and fun and all that.

It's funny you complain about limiting comics and then write that sentence. Daredevil was so close for a while from escaping from the adolescent hivemind that is comics, it seems he is being dragged right back in.

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Re: Daredevil #33 (The devil you say Spoilers)

Postby chap22 » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:17 pm

shut the fuck up, Twigg.
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Re: Daredevil #33 (The devil you say Spoilers)

Postby Cas » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:37 pm

Having a grounded DD doesn't mean he has to be put through the paces as you noted. Frank Millers original run is proof. But to make DD Spider-Man-lite is disparaging disservice to the characters and his potential as and someone wholly distinguashable.

Some concepts just don't have a place in some stories. Seeing those characters you mentioned appear in DD is as out of place as seeing them a Brubaker crime book. And even then keeping DD grounded in no way means his stories are more likely to become monotonous than Brubaker's Sleeper would. If people want that kind of variety, they have Spidey, Avengers, FF, and all the other comics Marvel publishes every week. Let DD have his niche for of all the characters in the MU he's one the few who works best in it.

No argument there about the SoS and deepening their back story (is this really the first time they've been given any back story?), but he could have stopped at Doc Strange telling Matt how and where to obtain the Darkhold and that would have been the end of it. But Waid had to further and include the LoM which completely ruined the arc for me.

No, it's THAT bad but I certainly don't like it. As soon he arrived in Kentucky and the LoM were introduced and he got shot because of plot and no good reason it all went to sh*t. And yes, I think including all the fantastic stuff makes it less of a DD tale.

On another note, did you think in the opening pages Matt looked a little young? Do you think was on purpose or perhaps the artist screwed up how he drew Matt? It certainly looked like a younger Matt but there was nothing in the exchange between himself and Foggy to indicate that. What did you think?

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