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The Official Outhouse All Wrestling Thread!

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Re: The Official Outhouse All Wrestling Thread!

Postby syxxpakk » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:37 pm

It depends. WWE has a distinct frame of match. Within the context of that frame, you can fit a variety of different approaches (i.e. Daniel Bryan is a different worker than Evan Bourne). But overall, the frame reminds the same match-to-match. You very rarely see a match that operates outside the framework, and when you do - the general reaction is "MOTYC" regardless of true quality It happened on Monday, for example. Cesaro vs Cena was a great match, but what really sets it a part is that it was different from the usual framework WWE matches followed.

That's basically what developmental is about. Teaching that framework. We can talk all day about how Sin Cara didn't work in WWE. But how come he was blowing minds weekly and being one of the top draws WORLDWIDE before he got to WWE? It's because he was allowed to do his thing, his way.

There's something to be said about homogenization, but there's also something to be said about learning how to work within the confines of structure. You can make valid arguments either way. To me, Sin Cara is the greatest example of the system failing. But then you also have Bryan Danielson, who might be the greatest example of the system working.
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Re: The Official Outhouse All Wrestling Thread!

Postby Stephen Day » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:40 pm

syxxpakk wrote:It depends. WWE has a distinct frame of match. Within the context of that frame, you can fit a variety of different approaches (i.e. Daniel Bryan is a different worker than Evan Bourne). But overall, the frame reminds the same match-to-match. You very rarely see a match that operates outside the framework, and when you do - the general reaction is "MOTYC" regardless of true quality It happened on Monday, for example. Cesaro vs Cena was a great match, but what really sets it a part is that it was different from the usual framework WWE matches followed.

That's basically what developmental is about. Teaching that framework. We can talk all day about how Sin Cara didn't work in WWE. But how come he was blowing minds weekly and being one of the top draws WORLDWIDE before he got to WWE? It's because he was allowed to do his thing, his way.

There's something to be said about homogenization, but there's also something to be said about learning how to work within the confines of structure. You can make valid arguments either way. To me, Sin Cara is the greatest example of the system failing. But then you also have Bryan Danielson, who might be the greatest example of the system working.


I completely agree with you about Mistico.
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Re: The Official Outhouse All Wrestling Thread!

Postby Punchy » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:42 pm

Stephen Day wrote:
I don't think it's a good thing in the end to tell the truth. New Japan has no problem finding wrestlers who can just step in. I think a lot of guys in ROH, or other places are a lot more ready than you might think. If somebody can step right out of DDT and wrestle in New Japan, then there isn't any doubt in my mind that there are people who could step right out of ROH into WWE. WWE developmental sounds good on the surface, but the problem is that all of their wrestlers are taught, or re-taught, to wrestler in the same style. It tends to make a lot of the WWE's in ring talent, particularly in their mid-card, seem very generic -- at least to me. It's one of the big reasons why I've stopped watching the Fed.


I dunno, I think there's plenty of variety when it comes to in-ring styles in WWE.

What NXT does best is allow people time to develop characters and gimmicks. Bray Wyatt initially debuted as the boring 'Husky Harris' in the WWE, but he went back down to NXT and was allowed to create a character that has become hugely popular.

I have no doubt that El Generico could have been dropped straight into Raw and do well in the ring, but being in NXT let him take his mask off and learn how to do promos properly rather than speak pidgin spanish in an environment that's less pressured than 15,000 baying fans.

WWE is about more than just in-ring style, it's about character, and that's what NXT is for.

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Re: The Official Outhouse All Wrestling Thread!

Postby Stephen Day » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:47 pm

Punchy wrote:
I dunno, I think there's plenty of variety when it comes to in-ring styles in WWE.

What NXT does best is allow people time to develop characters and gimmicks. Bray Wyatt initially debuted as the boring 'Husky Harris' in the WWE, but he went back down to NXT and was allowed to create a character that has become hugely popular.

I have no doubt that El Generico could have been dropped straight into Raw and do well in the ring, but being in NXT let him take his mask off and learn how to do promos properly rather than speak pidgin spanish in an environment that's less pressured than 15,000 baying fans.

WWE is about more than just in-ring style, it's about character, and that's what NXT is for.


There's way more of a variety of styles when I watch New Japan though. I think Syxx is right in this case. The Fed does promote a framework that can work for some people. The problem is that it doesn't work for others, and I've found, for my part, that it really doesn't work that well for me as a viewer.
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Re: The Official Outhouse All Wrestling Thread!

Postby Punchy » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:51 pm

Stephen Day wrote:
There's way more of a variety of styles when I watch New Japan though. I think Syxx is right in this case. The Fed does promote a framework that can work for some people. The problem is that it doesn't work for others, and I've found, for my part, that it really doesn't work that well for me as a viewer.


Yeah, it's different strokes for different folks in the end.

But as Syxx says, they do break from that framework at a fairly regular clip.

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Re: The Official Outhouse All Wrestling Thread!

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:51 pm

Stephen Day wrote:
There's way more of a variety of styles when I watch New Japan though. I think Syxx is right in this case. The Fed does promote a framework that can work for some people. The problem is that it doesn't work for others, and I've found, for my part, that it really doesn't work that well for me as a viewer.


That's the biggest problem. Once you've seen the WWE framework match 10,000,000 times, it becomes pretty fucking boring and predictable. There's almost no reason to watch the matches, just watch the promos and fast forward to the finish.
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Re: The Official Outhouse All Wrestling Thread!

Postby syxxpakk » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:54 pm

Punchy wrote:
Yeah, it's different strokes for different folks in the end.

But as Syxx says, they do break from that framework at a fairly regular clip.


No they don't, it's actually quite rare when they do. At best it's 5-10 times a year.

EDIT: And I'll add the caveat that it usually involves Triple H and the Undertaker, because they get to do whatever they want.
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Re: The Official Outhouse All Wrestling Thread!

Postby syxxpakk » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:59 pm

And that's not to say the framework is bad or that you can't have enjoyable matches within it, because you can. Dolph Ziggler and Bryan Danielson are the two best at working it, I'd argue. Cesaro, FWIW, it good at it - but it speaks volumes (to me) that his most critically acclaimed match ever wasn't really the normal WWE-style match. But that also doesn't mean Cesaro is a poor worker. I think he's easily top 10 in the world right now.

I guess the point is, there is definitely a WWE style of match. Some people benefit from it, some don't. Mistico, who I think in 2006 was literally the top draw in the world or close to it, didn't. But the fact that he didn't shouldn't have held him back. They should use that style of match for guys who need that style, and for those who don't - your Danielsons and Cesaros and Misticos - just let 'em cut loose. Mistico SHOULD have draw big money for WWE. The fact that he didn't, to me, will always be their fault - not his.
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Re: The Official Outhouse All Wrestling Thread!

Postby syxxpakk » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:01 pm

Another guy that the framework immensely benefits is Goldust. He was always a solid worker, but he's brilliant within the confines of the WWE framework.
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Re: The Official Outhouse All Wrestling Thread!

Postby Stephen Day » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:08 pm

Punchy wrote:
Yeah, it's different strokes for different folks in the end.

But as Syxx says, they do break from that framework at a fairly regular clip.


I'm fully willing to leave it at that, I have no problem with people enjoying the Fed's current product. It's just no longer for me. :)
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Re: The Official Outhouse All Wrestling Thread!

Postby GHERU » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:25 pm

Lord Simian wrote:Well, maybe if it was anyone else, but since it's not... fuck Joey Ryan! :twisted:

I liked Joey Ryan
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Re: The Official Outhouse All Wrestling Thread!

Postby Stephen Day » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:38 pm

GHERU wrote:I liked Joey Ryan


I remember him when he was in ROH. I can't say there was ever a match he was in that I disliked when he was there.
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Re: The Official Outhouse All Wrestling Thread!

Postby Lord Simian » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:39 pm

GHERU wrote:I liked Joey Ryan
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Re: The Official Outhouse All Wrestling Thread!

Postby syxxpakk » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:41 pm

Joey's pretty great, Simian's issues aside (and TBF - most wrestlers are horrible human beings, Steve Austin beat his wife recall?). I'm legit surprised he didn't get picked for developmental. Great personality and charisma.
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Re: The Official Outhouse All Wrestling Thread!

Postby Stephen Day » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:45 pm

syxxpakk wrote:Joey's pretty great, Simian's issues aside (and TBF - most wrestlers are horrible human beings, Steve Austin beat his wife recall?). I'm legit surprised he didn't get picked for developmental. Great personality and charisma.


Yeah, he's one of those guys that I've thought for awhile should be further along in his career than he is.
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