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Charles Soule to Write "Death of Wolverine" Event, Solidifies Status as Outhouse Hero

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Re: Charles Soule to Write "Death of Wolverine" Event, Solid

Postby Chessack » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:23 pm

Bond Hengbu wrote:I hate the soap opera of Big 2 superhero comics. Let characters die and create new ones dammit.


I might be OK with this if they didn't always let good (as in interesting, likable, with-reasonable-powers-and-origins) characters die and replace them with new bad (boring, unlikable, illogical) characters.

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Re: Charles Soule to Write "Death of Wolverine" Event, Solid

Postby Mr. Log » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:29 pm

I look forward to seeing the four new characters that appear to take his place.

Old Samurai!
Hunter!
Berserker!
Overused Man!

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Re: Charles Soule to Write "Death of Wolverine" Event, Solid

Postby Grayson » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:32 pm

Bond Hengbu wrote:I hate the soap opera of Big 2 superhero comics.


Then don't read comic books published by the Big 2. This is the formula that both DC and Marvel currently use and have used for several years now. It doesn't look like either company intends to change any time soon. :smt102
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Re: Charles Soule to Write "Death of Wolverine" Event, Solid

Postby SporkBot » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:47 pm

achilles wrote:I've heard the Punisher apparently kills on occasion. Once in a while. Now and then. Though of course when he does it, it's "punishment".


I meant that Wolverine is set apart from the likes of Spidey and Cap.

Johnny Smith wrote:Wolverine is the glue holding the Marvel Universe together.
Marvel will regret it when their Avengers and X-Men franchises crumble to pieces!


Then regret will become a happy-dance when they cash in on his return.

Bond Hengbu wrote:I hate the soap opera of Big 2 superhero comics. Let characters die and create new ones dammit.


A lot of readers grow attached to these characters and want to continue seeing stories about them. Bringing in new, replacement characters is tricky. Some consumers may not want to make that kind of investment with a new character. Case in point: DC was stagnant on bringing back Steph Brown, and we got Harper Row. Woo.

Grayson wrote:This is the formula that both DC and Marvel currently use and have used for several years now. It doesn't look like either company intends to change any time soon.


My brother fell out of the traditional superhero books a long time ago. He seems to feel that the genre is lacking in resolution, because (if I recall correctly) these characters just keep going and going and don't stop. There is no final issue of Superman, Captain America, Avengers, Batman, etc. I could be explaining it wrong, but I think that's about the gist of it.

And while I'm not saying he's right or wrong, necessarily...I don't really have a problem with it. If a story is bad, I'll drop the book and try and hock it on eBay or something. But for all my frustrations with the medium, I do still enjoy it.

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Re: Charles Soule to Write "Death of Wolverine" Event, Solid

Postby Bond Hengbu » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:33 pm

spork:

A lot of readers grow attached to these characters and want to continue seeing stories about them. Bringing in new, replacement characters is tricky. Some consumers may not want to make that kind of investment with a new character. Case in point: DC was stagnant on bringing back Steph Brown, and we got Harper Row. Woo.


Just do stories about the character when he is alive even after he died.
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Re: Charles Soule to Write "Death of Wolverine" Event, Solid

Postby Amoebas » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:03 pm

I won't buy it.
I won't read it.
But I fuckin' applaud it!

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Re: Charles Soule to Write "Death of Wolverine" Event, Solid

Postby Johnny Smith » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:14 pm

Maybe twenty years from now this will be as fondly remembered as Death of Superman

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Re: Charles Soule to Write "Death of Wolverine" Event, Solid

Postby SporkBot » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:06 pm

Bond Hengbu wrote:Just do stories about the character when he is alive even after he died.


That begs the question: What would be the point of killing them off in the first place?

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Re: Charles Soule to Write "Death of Wolverine" Event, Solid

Postby Bond Hengbu » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:51 pm

Because characters don't live forever/it would be an interesting story/characters should age and die. Darth Vader is dead but we still have a lot of stuff where he is the protagonist.
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Re: Charles Soule to Write "Death of Wolverine" Event, Solid

Postby HNutz » Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:03 am

Bond Hengbu wrote:Because characters don't live forever/it would be an interesting story/characters should age and die. Darth Vader is dead but we still have a lot of stuff where he is the protagonist.


And when you know that the character HAS to survive because you've already seen their death scene elsewhere, sometimes there's a feeling of "this particular story doesn't matter".

Like Anakin Skywalker's hour long pod race, for example.

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Re: Charles Soule to Write "Death of Wolverine" Event, Solid

Postby Chessack » Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:19 am

HNutz wrote:
And when you know that the character HAS to survive because you've already seen their death scene elsewhere, sometimes there's a feeling of "this particular story doesn't matter".

Like Anakin Skywalker's hour long pod race, for example.


There is a technical name for this but I can't recall it and I couldn't turn it up in a Google search. It refers to a "flashback" type of story where you know how the ending has to turn out one way or the other (death or survival), and the author tries to build suspense anyway, but the suspense fails, because you know the character can't be dead (or will die).

The Anakin pod-race is a good example and it's why certain aspects of prequels or flashbacks don't work. This is not to say that prequels/flashbacks cannot work (or stories about a now-dead character from years ago), but, the writer has to be very clear in his own mind about where suspense comes from. The Anakin race doesn't work well because it revolves around the question of Anakin's survival. We already know he's going to be Darth Vader, so the question of his survival is irrelevant -- and the pod race ends up being non-suspenseful.

On the other hand, there are elements of genuine suspense/interest in the prequels that revolve around "how did the world get to be where it was when the first SW movie came out?" HOW did Vader fall to the Dark Side? That is interesting. We know he will fall, but not how, and lots of people wanted to see that moment.

So the writer has to realize what he is doing when he does a flash-back scene or a story of a character whose fate is already known. Let's say they kill off Wolverine but then do flash-back stories of him (to keep selling comics). The writer has to realize that he cannot use any sort of story in which the suspense revolves around "will Wolverine survive?" because we already know Wolverine's fate. Instead, the story suspense must be based on characters whose fate remains UNKNOWN. This is why in flah-back stories, one introduces new characters who weren't seen later on, so we don't know what will happen to them. A good example of this is Short Round and Willie in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. We know Indy survives (because Raiders, which came out first, takes place a couple of years after ToD), but since Willie and Short Round don't appear in Raiders and aren't referred to one way or another, we don't know if they will make it. Hence, the suspense revolves around THEIR survival, not Indy's.

So the point is that yes, one can do prequel or flash-back stories and can do them well, but the writer has to change the way the stories are usually written. A flash-back can't attempt to evoke suspense around the question of whether a character who appears alive LATER will survive or not. The suspense has to come from somewhere else, or you get a really flat, boring story.

And that's why the pod-race scene doesn't work so well in Ep. 1... it's all about "will Anakin survive?" but we already know he does.

Now, if we had not heard the name Anakin Skywalker before... if we did not know that THIS KID was going to become Vader, if Lucas had somehow hidden that from us (let's say, a whole family of Skywalker boys, and you don't know which one ends up being Vader), then there would have been suspense, and that scene would have worked (better, at least). But because there is only one Skywalker kid, and we already know Anakin = Vader, it was the suspense that was killed instead of the character.

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Re: Charles Soule to Write "Death of Wolverine" Event, Solid

Postby Scintillant-H » Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:38 am

Mr. Log wrote:I look forward to seeing the four new characters that appear to take his place.

Old Samurai!
Hunter!
Berserker!
Overused Man!


OutHouser! (would that be based on Simian, then? Ah, the bacon fiend... :lol: )
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Re: Charles Soule to Write "Death of Wolverine" Event, Solid

Postby Bond Hengbu » Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:55 am

HNutz wrote:
And when you know that the character HAS to survive because you've already seen their death scene elsewhere, sometimes there's a feeling of "this particular story doesn't matter".

Like Anakin Skywalker's hour long pod race, for example.

If it's a really good character it will sell well no matter what.
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Re: Charles Soule to Write "Death of Wolverine" Event, Solid

Postby Chessack » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:30 am

Bond Hengbu wrote:If it's a really good character it will sell well no matter what.



Maybe. But you can kill these things too. A really good character still needs a good story or eventually people give up on it. Witness the examples of Superman III and IV. Great characters (Superman, Lana Lang, Lois Lane, Lex Luthor). Awful stories. Eventually people gave up on the whole idea of the franchise, which is why IV was a flop.

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Re: Charles Soule to Write "Death of Wolverine" Event, Solid

Postby Stephen Day » Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:34 am

Mr. Log wrote:I look forward to seeing the four new characters that appear to take his place.

Old Samurai!
Hunter!
Berserker!
Overused Man!


I can't wait for the time in which Overused Man is featured in every comic Marvel publishes in a single month period. :P
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