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Cassandra Cain/Stephanie Brown Thread

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SporkBot

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby SporkBot » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:00 pm

Zechs wrote:So... #980 cover was leaked. But.. I ain't posting them. I have the pics. But I ain't posting it out of respect to the author. However...

[Reveal] Spoiler: Click to Expand
Cass and Stephanie's times as Batgirl are coming back.


Sounds good, initially. But execution of good ideas has often been a problem, so I'm no more excited about this than the announcements that they were getting reinvented. I hope they do the smart thing and just ignore everything changed about them post-Flashpoint, no new origins, no filicidal Dads that get their throats cut or die meaningless deaths done strictly for shock value and cheap heart-string-tugging, no Harper Row whatsoever...not just because they were terrible ideas done poorly, but because the "new takes" on Cass and Steph do not and cannot work with the pre52 iterations. One version is about each of the those two, the OTHER version is about a pampered Mary Sue with delusions of superiority. And even if they could, I can't think of anyone at the publisher that can make it work. And it goes without saying I'm wary of anything Tynion contributes.

But I've come to expect anything but smart from DC, so some schmuck very well might try. Because regardless of anything in Detective since Rebirth, Harper's involvement and focus in other characters' lives/origins was always a gargantuan mistake. Just because she hasn't been shown much doesn't change the damage done for her sake.
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Zechs

Outhouse Editor

Postby Zechs » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:54 pm

For the third time ever (one sketch post Hush, DCUO character design) Jim Lee draws Cass:

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OneWhoIsAll

Expert Post Whore

Postby OneWhoIsAll » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:13 am

Pretty surprised he was able to draw so many characters in that time span with his track record...
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Rebirth NoctourneM

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Postby Rebirth NoctourneM » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:42 am

SporkBot wrote:
So, they crapped the bed while suffering diarrhea with the "Harper is the most important being ever" version of Cassie's origin (and to a degree, Steph's too), rush things like Cassie's life or Steph's training (or omit it entirely), work the stories and character entirely to feature more Harper, who wasn't even developed at all...but it's okay because they put a couple paper towels down.

The Harper damage has been done. It can be fixed, but not by keeping her appearances few and far between. It's like if they wrote a story where the Flash groped a bunch of women at super-speed, and their "fix" was to only bring it up as a joke once and never actually resolve this conflict to his personality.



Yes, I did; I bought it, after all, foolishly thinking the conclusion might've had a chance to redeem the overall lousy story as a whole. I saw how Orphan-Cain ran Mother through after his inexplicable survival of a slit throat. But Cassie was as much an afterthought in his actions as she was her new origin. First and foremost, it was about "Mommy" not appreciating David enough. That is what he began with and decried most. So the closest he came to giving a damn about Cassie was a largely selfish sacrifice, that didn't really need to happen if he just shoved her into the lava in her stupid ice-fortress, watched her burn, then escape and find an active way to make amends to his daughter. Unless she'd survive that with no explanation like that poison tooth. Killing himself was pointless. And Cass taking a killer's name is stupid, regardless of the "she feels she has no family" excuse. Sounds like a lazy attempt at seeming "artsy" and "deep".

Three word bubbles do not make up for all the confused nonsense of 26 issues of a slobbering idiot henchmen. Everything about his "sacrifice" was poorly done, like a lot in the series. Orphan-Cain is different in the worst way from pre52 Cain, and I sincerely doubt Tynion was planning this big epic character arc where he "secretly loved Cass"...he's on damage control, at best, with little hints like that picture of Shiva. But even by your own admission, he's not doing so well with other characters, so this attempt to mildly retcon his mistakes may not even pan out, planned or not.

The Eternal books were overly ambitious anniversary money-grabs. While there were other writers and editors (the latter of whom I'm certain where either asleep or drunk on the job), the stories have been frequently been referred to as Tynion's ideas. For what few interesting elements they had, they were tediously long, had lousy reinventions of characters, and were were not done very well because of a lot of factors beyond Tynion's inability to grow characters organically. Hugging Clayface doesn't change that. Saying "they're basically the same" when they obviously aren't doesn't fix that.



Except the two versions CANNOT HAVE HAPPENED TOGETHER. Either Cassie was Batgirl and had her own life that was about HER (scary as that may be to some Harper fans), or it was the Harper-centric version Tynion molded. Historically and in terms of storytelling, they don't mesh. Chalking it up to "Dr. Manhattan did stuff" is lazy writing trying to salvage the crappier ideas that should be tossed away (I can't think of a single DC character reinvention that was in any way improved from the previous). Remember how Quesada explained how Peter and MJ never got married? Yeah, it's that level of stupid. This general idea of "It's Dr. Manhattan, we don't have to explain it" is DC trying to b.s. their way as they struggle to rub two brain cells together in hopes of getting their stuff together. As I've said before, if Rebirth is this "apology" as it's often been touted, what kind of apology leaves mistakes to continue? That's like some apologizing for drunkenly driving into your house, but they get to keep their license AND keep driving!

You want Cassie to be all friendly with Clayface, fine, no reason that can't work with a post-Batgirl, pre52, 100% Row-free Cassie (I'd imagine his amorphous form and the nature of his powers in general would make him difficult to "read", but that's another matter). I have no problem with the idea, only that Tynion's past attempts at such connections were done terribly. They can either give Cassie her good origin, or Tynion's, but they can't (and shouldn't) have both. Because Tynion's was BAD.



Another character he's professed to love. I mean, I'm not saying Tynion is lying (falsely claiming to be a fan is something of a stretch, to be honest), but with the damage already done to Stephanie and Cass, Tynion's previous attempts at character relationships being done poorly, and what you've outlined in the paragraph above, it's hard to see the love for anyone. Even IF the Cassie/Clay friendship is objectively well-done, how does that solve any of the other problems? Or fix his technical problems as a writer (poorly developed characterizations, numerous obvious plot holes, apparently rehashing the same "evil clandestine group attacks" story, unresolved elements, obvious beef against characters' fathers)? I've been down that "Maybe it'll get better" road before, and...well, things didn't improve.


They've mentioned her once in over 50 issues and only in regard to someone else. The only reason I am sick and tired of harper row is because I am constantly hearing about this character from you. :P
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Rebirth NoctourneM

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Postby Rebirth NoctourneM » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:44 am

Zechs wrote:If you haven't already, Cassandra was one of the first stretch goals unlocked in the Batman: Gotham Chronicles Kickstarter (the other was David Cain). Yes, it's Orphan guise (but Monolith the company that is making the game), but I don't think it'll be her only guise in the game if the teasing or fact that people within the company are fans of the character.

Barbara and Tim are the only two who've gotten alternates thus far (in Oracle/New 52 Batgirl and Robin/New 52 Red Robin) who aren't named Bruce.

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Totally backed
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SporkBot

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby SporkBot » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:25 pm

Rebirth NoctourneM wrote:They've mentioned her once in over 50 issues and only in regard to someone else.


How exactly does not mentioning/showing the character fix anything, let alone everything Tynion broke?

Maybe they should have a story where Wonder Woman randomly decapitates innocent civilians for no reason. It'll be fine, so long as no one mentions it after that issue, especially if the writer says they're a fan of the superheroine.
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Draco x

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Postby Draco x » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:44 pm

SporkBot wrote:
How exactly does not mentioning/showing the character fix anything, let alone everything Tynion broke?

Maybe they should have a story where Wonder Woman randomly decapitates innocent civilians for no reason. It'll be fine, so long as no one mentions it after that issue, especially if the writer says they're a fan of the superheroine.


To be fair, now that they switched writers on the bat-books, we haven't been getting so much of Harper-Sue for a good while.
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Rebirth NoctourneM

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Postby Rebirth NoctourneM » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:45 pm

Draco x wrote:
To be fair, now that they switched writers on the bat-books, we haven't been getting so much of Harper-Sue for a good while.


Detective, the book she is in is written by tynion.
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Draco x

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Postby Draco x » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:49 pm

Rebirth NoctourneM wrote:
Detective, the book she is in is written by tynion.


I will change my statement to we haven't seen much of Harper-Sue for a good while and leave it at that then.
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Zechs

Outhouse Editor

Postby Zechs » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:57 pm

Rebirth NoctourneM wrote:
They've mentioned her once in over 50 issues and only in regard to someone else. The only reason I am sick and tired of harper row is because I am constantly hearing about this character from you. :P


Spork has mentioned her more than Tynion has. That is.. surprising.
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OneWhoIsAll

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Postby OneWhoIsAll » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:13 pm

Zechs wrote:
Spork has mentioned her more than Tynion has. That is.. surprising.


Haha sarcasm I love it.
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SporkBot

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby SporkBot » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:35 pm

Zechs wrote:Spork has mentioned her more than Tynion has.


Your remark is limited to Tynion's 'Tec run and omits the constant worship and tongue-bathing he gave her for nearly 80 issues.

Draco x wrote:To be fair...we haven't been getting so much of Harper-Sue for a good while.


Which would be fine, if she stayed a minor character with little focus during the Eternal books. Unfortunately, Tynion decided to make her the epicenter for a lot of those issues, and the unnecessary new origins within. Those stories weren't even done very well, but his lousy reinventions are his foundation for these characters going forward. If those reinventions are bad...what's so great about continuing from there? The way he was "developing" these characters was like the irate lunch-lady that hates her job, scooping the questionably fresh, food-like slop that was the bullet-point version of his take on characters and carelessly throwing it on a passerby's tray. No real build-up, terrible pacing, confused attempts at seeming "deep", and bad character connections that seemed inspired by The Phantom Menace, but this time, the Jar-Jar is more pointless and everyone is kissing her ass. And the Eternal books are frequently credited as HIS pitch, HIS stories...by him AND his mentor Scott Snyder. If there's some resource where it was Snyder or Johns or Didio pushing Harper, by all means, share.

Sorry if my bringing her up is unpleasant, but...damage was done to these characters to falsely prop her up, and nothing I've seen or read about seems to indicate anything has changed for the better. For all the "Cass and Steph are just the same" talk, no one's actually given me solid examples, so there's no reason to believe anything's actually improved. It seems that some readers are just taking DC's word that "it all happened", even without an explanation how. And/or, relying more on apathy to these characters, or taking what few similarities they have to the GOOD versions and taking what they can get.

So I ask again...how does Harper not appearing very often SOLVE the problems Tynion caused by, including but not limited to, making Cassie's origin (and Steph's, to a degree) all about Row?

Addendum: How long does Marvel need to go without showing/mentioning Hydra-Cap before that concept becomes a good idea?
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Zechs

Outhouse Editor

Postby Zechs » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:37 pm

SporkBot wrote:
Your remark is limited to Tynion's 'Tec run and omits the constant worship and tongue-bathing he gave her for nearly 80 issues.



Which would be fine, if she stayed a minor character with little focus during the Eternal books. Unfortunately, Tynion decided to make her the epicenter for a lot of those issues, and the unnecessary new origins within. Those stories weren't even done very well, but his lousy reinventions are his foundation for these characters going forward. If those reinventions are bad...what's so great about continuing from there? The way he was "developing" these characters was like the irate lunch-lady that hates her job, scooping the questionably fresh, food-like slop that was the bullet-point version of his take on characters and carelessly throwing it on a passerby's tray. No real build-up, terrible pacing, confused attempts at seeming "deep", and bad character connections that seemed inspired by The Phantom Menace, but this time, the Jar-Jar is more pointless and everyone is kissing her ass. And the Eternal books are frequently credited as HIS pitch, HIS stories...by him AND his mentor Scott Snyder. If there's some resource where it was Snyder or Johns or Didio pushing Harper, by all means, share.

Sorry if my bringing her up is unpleasant, but...damage was done to these characters to falsely prop her up, and nothing I've seen or read about seems to indicate anything has changed for the better. For all the "Cass and Steph are just the same" talk, no one's actually given me solid examples, so there's no reason to believe anything's actually improved. It seems that some readers are just taking DC's word that "it all happened", even without an explanation how. And/or, relying more on apathy to these characters, or taking what few similarities they have to the GOOD versions and taking what they can get.

So I ask again...how does Harper not appearing very often SOLVE the problems Tynion caused by, including but not limited to, making Cassie's origin (and Steph's, to a degree) all about Row?

Addendum: How long does Marvel need to go without showing/mentioning Hydra-Cap before that concept becomes a good idea?


You've still mentioned her more than Tynion has done in Tec. :P She's a background character now. Accept it. The evil is gone.
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OneWhoIsAll

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Postby OneWhoIsAll » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:17 pm

Did he just compare Cap being essentially a NeoNazi (to reflect the real world rise of NeoNazism) to some teenager who lost her mommy in the back story of Cass?
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SporkBot

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby SporkBot » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:20 pm

Zechs wrote:You've still mentioned her more than Tynion has done in Tec. She's a background character now. Accept it. The evil is gone.


You're evading. The reason I've mentioned Harper in relation to Cass at all, is because of the Eternal books, where she was held up as some messianic figure. Thus far, that mistake of a retcon remains, offering nothing in the way of improvement or equal value to the previous histories for Cass OR Steph. It is not fixed, it is not "gone" simply because Harp doesn't show up. If we applied your reasoning to Steph, then that would mean she's "totally in-character" and being written wonderfully...but by your own admission, she's not.

In fact, in all the times I've asked for examples about how the old and new origins somehow work together, or how not acknowledging a mistake somehow fixes it, I've gotten ZERO actual answers. If there was some issue where the Rebirth effect somehow rippled their way, and it was actually explained how they were fixed, I imagine you would've cited as much or provided links. I can point out how Superman's Rebirth origin played out. But you didn't, so what else am I supposed to think other than either you're holding out for some reason, or there is no such fix for Cass...or Steph. I mean, NOW you can say they might get their Batgirl histories back, but obviously that's the only thing, being done at the END of his run, and we don't even know if it's done well. So far it just seems like you're just taking DC at their word about this "both canons happened" excuse, even though that can't work and make sense.

What I DON'T and WON'T accept is this idea that after all Cassie and Steph's earned development was chucked away for another character's "glory", by all indications because it was all part of Tynion's story plans, simply not acknowledging it somehow solves the problem. It doesn't. Not on a narrative level, not on a literary level, not on a logical level. Because accepting THAT is the kind of reader apathy that solves nothing, lets lazy writing and mediocrity flourish, and gives us more garbage like the New52 and half-assedly written Michael Bay movies about 80's properties.

After ALL the opportunities I've given to be proven wrong, you've only noted moments in 'Tec that vaguely resemble something pre52, or given excuses on Tynion's behalf. If you could actually cite specific examples how it's explained that Cass' old origin is intact, beyond "she's friends with this person and that person and she...wears a black costume", and how it somehow works with the lousy one in any way, that would've been one thing. But you didn't.

I can't "accept it" because you've given me nothing to accept (aside from increasingly condescending replies that are veering towards Beast/Liam territory). Nothing I've seen or heard/read about in 'Tec validates or excuses his mistakes in the Eternal books; its acceptance seems more based on readers not knowing the characters beforehand, or just taking what they can get and not wanting to "rock the boat" or something.

OneWhoIsAll wrote:Did he just compare Cap being essentially a NeoNazi (to reflect the real world rise of NeoNazism) to some teenager who lost her mommy in the back story of Cass?


If that comparison offends, I apologize. It just seemed like the most apt story in recent memory that pointlessly retconned a character's life because some schmuck thought he had "a really cool idea", but it was actually seen by many as antithetical to, and a betrayal of, the hero regardless of alleged intent. I've even considered that it was, as you say, meant to reflect the unfortunate real-life rise in Nazisim, but that doesn't mean it got it's point across well (how many times did the writer say one thing, then do the opposite in his story?).

Killing Row's Mom was never about Cass. The entire B&RE series was only ever about playing Row up, no matter how lousily done, while Cass was treated like a damn footnote. That was his big first impression and the foundation of HIS version of the character (and, yeah...Steph, too). And I just don't see how hugging Clayface or yelling at Batwoman makes that any better.

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