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Clockwork_Fish

cheese

Postby Clockwork_Fish » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:38 pm

Rebirth NoctourneM wrote:No but her whole attitude was she wasn't broken up about it at all, it was necessary. So fuck you. Completely contrary to everything in detective before this (Teammate? It's her team , so that was her subordinate.) and I daresay her solo book as well.


Yeah...this is giving me an uncomfortable X-Men vibe. Batman's gonna take a page from Hank McCoy's best-seller "Friendship for Assholes" and declare that Batwoman is worse than Hitler. Batwoman joins the Colony, despite the fact they tried to carpet bomb the city. Probably start hanging out with a trashy blonde cougar in leather short shorts, just to keep the analogy going. Everyone's going to pick sides, even if it's arbitrary.

Then everyone fights each other. Then I'm guessing somebody will probably get killed or injured in the crossfire to make everyone learn a valuable lesson or something. Probably Cass, cause she's the expendable one.
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SporkBot

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby SporkBot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:47 pm

See, on the one hand, she's soldier, but I could see her having a different attitude about killing. Though you'd think Batman would, y'know...know that since they're cousins now. Then again, if Clayface was on her team, you'd think is should affect her to some degree, like a commanding officer forced to take out someone in the lower ranks. But that would depend on if there was even a relationship there to affect her at all.

And it's very strange that Bats get so mad at her (according to the 'Tec preview), yet for several years, he didn't really do much to stop Jason Todd from gunning people down while bearing a bat on his chest. But that may be more of laziness on the writers and/or editors, who didn't feel like addressing such a conflict for fear of having to work to make sense.
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Rebirth NoctourneM

Rain Partier

Postby Rebirth NoctourneM » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:11 pm

Clockwork_Fish wrote:
Yeah...this is giving me an uncomfortable X-Men vibe. Batman's gonna take a page from Hank McCoy's best-seller "Friendship for Assholes" and declare that Batwoman is worse than Hitler. Batwoman joins the Colony, despite the fact they tried to carpet bomb the city. Probably start hanging out with a trashy blonde cougar in leather short shorts, just to keep the analogy going. Everyone's going to pick sides, even if it's arbitrary.

Then everyone fights each other. Then I'm guessing somebody will probably get killed or injured in the crossfire to make everyone learn a valuable lesson or something. Probably Cass, cause she's the expendable one.


Hank McCoy? I'm pretty sure that was me marvel
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Zechs

Outhouse Editor

Postby Zechs » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:11 pm

Jason has played nice nice since Rebirth.
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SporkBot

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby SporkBot » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:09 am

Clockwork_Fish wrote:Yeah...this is giving me an uncomfortable X-Men vibe. Batman's gonna take a page from Hank McCoy's best-seller "Friendship for Assholes" and declare that Batwoman is worse than Hitler. Batwoman joins the Colony, despite the fact they tried to carpet bomb the city. Probably start hanging out with a trashy blonde cougar in leather short shorts, just to keep the analogy going. Everyone's going to pick sides, even if it's arbitrary.

Then everyone fights each other. Then I'm guessing somebody will probably get killed or injured in the crossfire to make everyone learn a valuable lesson or something. Probably Cass, cause she's the expendable one.


There's also a chance important storyline stuff will have to explained in clunky dialogue (because the story needed 2-3 bland splash-pages per issue), the most interesting fights or moments will be cut away from, then returned to after their conclusion, and characters who just met and have no reason to like each other will be bestest friends by the next issue.

Zechs wrote:Jason has played nice nice since Rebirth.


So I've heard. But it hardly explains away Bats' passive nature for the several years prior, no more than when Todd would "use rubber bullets", but only when in Gotham or if Bats was around. This isn't about Todd's character, but Batman's. It's never made sense to me that the non-killer that hates guns and trains his allies to rely in on alternative, non-lethal means, is okay and even proud over it all. I get wanting Batman to be more compassionate around "his kids", but this is just...stupid. They want Todd to be Punisher-with-snark or something, fine. But he shouldn't do it wearing a bat, and he Bruce shouldn't okay with it at any level. Especially if you're going to have him, or any of his clan flip out if someone else uses lethal force, 'cause it really confuses this whole Batwoman bit, recent changes or not.
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Clockwork_Fish

cheese

Postby Clockwork_Fish » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:43 pm

SporkBot wrote:

So I've heard. But it hardly explains away Bats' passive nature for the several years prior, no more than when Todd would "use rubber bullets", but only when in Gotham or if Bats was around. This isn't about Todd's character, but Batman's. It's never made sense to me that the non-killer that hates guns and trains his allies to rely in on alternative, non-lethal means, is okay and even proud over it all. I get wanting Batman to be more compassionate around "his kids", but this is just...stupid. They want Todd to be Punisher-with-snark or something, fine. But he shouldn't do it wearing a bat, and he Bruce shouldn't okay with it at any level. Especially if you're going to have him, or any of his clan flip out if someone else uses lethal force, 'cause it really confuses this whole Batwoman bit, recent changes or not.


He also considers Midnighter an ally, so explain that in terms of the no-kill rule.

But I think the situation is a bit different than when other Bats have killed in the past. Jason kills in anger, Damian killed people out of pragmatism and/or fear. Batgirl put a batarang in her brother's eye and knocked him off a roof, and tried to hack up Joker with a chainsaw (best part of Death of the Family in my opinion). Batman handed Hush over to Joker because...I don't really know, guess he thought Joker would give him a wet Willie and let him go?

Normally when Bats kill (or think they've killed) it's for petty personal reasons. This is more akin to Wonder Woman killing Maxwell Lord; a character does something morally questionable because they thought there was no other choice.
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SporkBot

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby SporkBot » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:16 am

Clockwork_Fish wrote:He also considers Midnighter an ally, so explain that in terms of the no-kill rule.


I don't know about how close that alliance is (I only ever saw Midnighter work with the Bat-folk in B&RE). I could see that as "he's useful sometimes, but I don't like his methods...if we had to work together, he's not killing anyone, I'll make sure of it." But that'd be my interpretation.

See, I think there's a distinction between those he's "raised" as crime-fighters, and someone that started out without him. I mean, Bat's doesn't scold Jim Gordon, but he's "the one honest cop in Gotham", so isn't trigger happy.

If I wanted to stretch for an explanation, you could argue that someone like Midnighter isn't really one of "the family", and Jason "lost his way" while working as "free agent" (though that doesn't entirely explain Bruce's passive attitude), while Kate in this situation, while not trained by Bruce, may've agreed to the no-kill rule while working with the team, and subsequently broke that trust. She operated outside his purview for so long, he let her in taking a chance, and she defied him.

Again, one interpretation that doesn't really explain everything, but it's DC's mess. If I put any more thought into this, they'll need to start paying me.

Normally when Bats kill (or think they've killed) it's for petty personal reasons. This is more akin to Wonder Woman killing Maxwell Lord; a character does something morally questionable because they thought there was no other choice.


Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but Babs was trying to save her Mother, and wasn't really going for a kill-shot. It was just a situation that turned out bad (just not as bad as she thought). But as for Kate...yeah, I can see that. Though I assume that area was evacuated...what OTHER reason would half the team be pulling their masks off at random, while the other shouts their real names for all to hear?

Sloppy writing. Sloppy writing is the other reason.
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Zechs

Outhouse Editor

Postby Zechs » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:38 pm

Midnighter was an ally to Dick. Hence why he was lending a hand.
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Clockwork_Fish

cheese

Postby Clockwork_Fish » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:26 pm

Zechs wrote:Midnighter was an ally to Dick. Hence why he was lending a hand.


They did try to call him in to save Tim during the Colony story. Bats has him on speed dial! :shock:

SporkBot wrote:Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but Babs was trying to save her Mother, and wasn't really going for a kill-shot. It was just a situation that turned out bad (just not as bad as she thought).


It's been a while, but I remember her being pretty pissed at the time, and she did put a batarang in his eye. And she was definitely trying to cleave the Joker in half. Heck, issue before that she beat him senseless and tried to put a bullet in his spine. She only stopped because Joker had a sniper on her.

SporkBot wrote: But as for Kate...yeah, I can see that. Though I assume that area was evacuated...what OTHER reason would half the team be pulling their masks off at random, while the other shouts their real names for all to hear?


Except the whole point of this exercise is to divide everyone into two ideological camps. If there was nobody in harm's way, then killing Clayface makes absolutely no sense, either in context or as a narrative device and...

SporkBot wrote:Sloppy writing. Sloppy writing is the other reason.


...yeah, it's basically just that.
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IvCNuB4

Staff Writer

Postby IvCNuB4 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:34 pm

Dick guest-starred in Midnighter's solo title and Midnighter guest-starred in Grayson on numerous occasions. Although they had vastly different approaches to crime-fighting they had developed a genuine trust and working relationship.
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Zechs

Outhouse Editor

Postby Zechs » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:59 pm

IvCNuB4 wrote:Dick guest-starred in Midnighter's solo title and Midnighter guest-starred in Grayson on numerous occasions. Although they had vastly different approaches to crime-fighting they had developed a genuine trust and working relationship.



This. That's why he showed up in B&RE. Plus Bruce was rather out of it due to Endgame (and didn't show up in that entire mini save for the flashbacks and the ending which by that time period was synced up with Snyder's run).

The thing about the Death of the Family, was I guess EVERY Bat Family member snapped when fighting the Joker in their crossover issue. Barbara, Dick, and Damian were all going that angle and it blew up in their faces (I didn't read the Tim/Jason stuff because of fuck Lobdell's Teen Titans run. FUCK IT!).
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Rebirth NoctourneM

Rain Partier

Postby Rebirth NoctourneM » Thu May 24, 2018 12:34 am

Zechs wrote:
Some believe it's a fakeout and he's okay. That this is all show for the Colony. It be the greatest Oscar-winner if it was.


lol :lol:
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Zechs

Outhouse Editor

Postby Zechs » Thu May 24, 2018 5:13 pm

Rebirth NoctourneM wrote:
lol :lol:


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