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[Strict31]

I didn't think the mutant machine was so bad. I always thought the Legacy Virus should have been a virus that would transform normal people into mutants. The problem was that it supercharged mutants and killed them. It would have been Stryfe's way of changing the future and making sure Apocalypse never gained control.

Stryfe was just misunderstood.

I don't have a problem with the Mutato-Ray as a concept. But magneto's plan for operating it was balls. It's like, Yeah, I'm gonna do this thing which is gonna leave me completely vulnerable to my enemies and shit. Because i'll be totally unconscious. Sure do hope nothing goes wrong with that plan...

[Doc Jon]

HELL YES! FINALLY!!!!

AMEN TO THE TOAD COMMENT. That's what made me fall in love with Toad in the first place! AND it's FREAKING RAY PARK!! XD Nice to see someone else who likes the movie. 2 wasn't bad, that one was pretty good... 3.....don't get started. >_>

I really like X2, and there were moments that surpass the first film.

-Nightcrawler's White House attack was amazing.
-Stryker was a great villain.
-Wolverine's rampage at the mansion.

So many great moments, but X-men to me has always been about the clash of ideologies. It's about Xavier's dream versus Magneto's vision, set in a world that hunts and hates mutants.

The first film exemplified all these things, which is why I see it as the superior film. The first scene in X-men where Magneto and Xavier have that little talk is some of the best acting in any of the 3 movies. Both men were perfectly cast.

[Strict31]

Yes, but Superman 2 is still highly regarded as being one of the greatest comic movies ever. I still love it. But in the day of the internet, fanboys would be rolling their eyes months before it ever hit theaters.

A kiss that erases memories? Superman takes his S-shield and it becomes super Saran Wrap?!

But ask any fan, or even many non-fans what was the worst part of that movie, and they'll tell you it was the shitty kiss. Fuck, i remember having this same discussion before there was an internet, when we were all a bunch of kids sitting around the lunch table talking about how shitty that was. As much as people loved that movie, they always knew that kiss was shit.

So, that's why I'm saying you're comparing something that is shit (the kiss) to something that is not-shit, and concluding that this is an indication of its relative quality.

[Doc Jon]

I don't have a problem with the Mutato-Ray as a concept. But magneto's plan for operating it was balls. It's like, Yeah, I'm gonna do this thing which is gonna leave me completely vulnerable to my enemies and shit. Because i'll be totally unconscious. Sure do hope nothing goes wrong with that plan...

As opposed to using the machine and dying? It made sense considering the circumstances. His vulnerability was an unfortunate side effect, but that's what Toad, Sabertooth and Mystique were there for.

[Strict31]

I really like X2, and there were moments that surpass the first film.

-Nightcrawler's White House attack was amazing.
-Stryker was a great villain.
-Wolverine's rampage at the mansion.

So many great moments, but X-men to me has always been about the clash of ideologies. It's about Xavier's dream versus Magneto's vision, set in a world that hunts and hates mutants.

The first film exemplified all these things, which is why I see it as the superior film. The first scene in X-men where Magneto and Xavier have that little talk is some of the best acting in any of the 3 movies. Both men were perfectly cast.

Yeah, the Nightcrawler scene, the attack on the mansion, that shit was X-Men done right.

[Beast]

I really like X2, and there were moments that surpass the first film.

-Nightcrawler's White House attack was amazing.
-Stryker was a great villain.
-Wolverine's rampage at the mansion.

So many great moments, but X-men to me has always been about the clash of ideologies. It's about Xavier's dream versus Magneto's vision, set in a world that hunts and hates mutants.

The first film exemplified all these things, which is why I see it as the superior film. The first scene in X-men where Magneto and Xavier have that little talk is some of the best acting in any of the 3 movies. Both men were perfectly cast.

What I recently read on it was Toad was actually suppose to fight Nightcrawler in the second movie, but due to Ray's schedule, he was unable to be there for the shoot. >.< That pissed me off cause that would have been so freakin' awesome! And i did like how they did Stryker in that movie. If I remember, i really think the second one was my fave out of the three. xD

And I agree, both magneto and Charles were perfectly cast. xD

[Strict31]

As opposed to using the machine and dying? It made sense considering the circumstances. His vulnerability was an unfortunate side effect, but that's what Toad, Sabertooth and Mystique were there for.

You'd really think that a guy of Magneto's intellect could find an alternative master plot that wouldn't leave him completely vulnerable. or dead, if you wish. To me, that only adds to the innate stupidity of the plan, but i was trying to avoid pointing out too many of the flaws.

I mean, I dunno, I got lots of world domination plans on the back burner, and none of them involve the words: "but this shit could kill me." Yes, i've discarded all of those plans in favor of the ones that do not involve my death or leaving me helpless before my hated foes.

Who are immune to the effects of my master plan, btw.

I'm just saying, and potential global despot worth his Rod of Lordly Might should probably turn his attention to plans that don't include dying or falling unconscious as a necessary component to success.

[Doc Jon]

But ask any fan, or even many non-fans what was the worst part of that movie, and they'll tell you it was the shitty kiss. Fuck, i remember having this same discussion before there was an internet, when we were all a bunch of kids sitting around the lunch table talking about how shitty that was. As much as people loved that movie, they always knew that kiss was shit.

So, that's why I'm saying you're comparing something that is shit (the kiss) to something that is not-shit, and concluding that this is an indication of its relative quality.

No, there was also the Super Saran Wrap, the Superman dopplegangers, Kryptonians shooting rays out of their hands, and that was just in Superman 2!

There was also Superman turning back time, Cher style!

Don't take one line that I've said and turn it into the basis for my whole argument. The kiss, while crap, was only one of the many implausible changes made to one of the greatest comic films of all time.

[Doc Jon]

I mean, I dunno, I got lots of world domination plans...

No... no, you don't.

The day you invent a machine capable of granting a normal person an unstable X-gene, assemble a group of mutant badasses, and take over the Statue of Liberty, I'll concede this point.

[Strict31]

No, there was also the Super Saran Wrap, the Superman dopplegangers, Kryptonians shooting rays out of their hands, and that was just in Superman 2!

There was also Superman turning back time, Cher style!

Don't take one line that I've said and turn it into the basis for my whole argument. The kiss, while crap, was only one of the many implausible changes made to one of the greatest comic films of all time.

Well, the simple fact is that if you take a hunk of asparagas and lay it down next to a hunk of turd, most people will not choose the hunk of turd, no matter how much they dislike asparagas. If you remove the hunk of shit, well, you've got the shit out of the way, but you still have to contend with a hunk of asparagas.

The fact that the super-kiss was shit, or whatever part of the movie you wanna choose (I didn't choose the comparison after all, I'm just defining it), does not make the Mutato-Generator less shit. It just makes it less shit in comparison to shit.

Now, maybe if you'd chosen a comparison that wasn't shit, we'd be cooking with fire. But as it stands, we're still waging a mediocre concept against a shitty concept. The shit of one does not make the other any less mediocre.

[Strict31]

No... no, you don't.

The day you invent a machine capable of granting a normal person an unstable X-gene, assemble a group of mutant badasses, and take over the Statue of Liberty, I'll concede this point.

The fuck would I want to give other muthafuckas powers for? If I'm gonna do something that will eventually lead to their genetic structures breaking down and killing them, why in the hell wouldn't I just shoot them with a big ass-laser from orbit? That'll kill 'em a lot faster.

Dude, it was a dumb idea. No matter how we charitably slice it, it was dumb.

I mean, either mags was utterly incompetent and created a Mutato-Ray that would ultimately kill any human it affected (due to the unstable genes and such) or he just didn't give a shit whether it killed them. In which case, there are any number of plots that can kill muthafuckas quicker in massive doses, and without magneto dying in the process.

The writers just didn't think that shit through all the way. And pointing out the crappiness of super kisses and saran wrap doesn't change that. In fact, all it indicates is that lots of people come up with dumb ideas in movies.

[Beast]

Ok, I guess to sum it up, Movies can be good and bad, all movies has them. It's sad and annoying, but true. LOL But very interesting convo though. xD

[Doc Jon]

Well, the simple fact is that if you take a hunk of asparagas and lay it down next to a hunk of turd, most people will not choose the hunk of turd, no matter how much they dislike asparagas. If you remove the hunk of shit, well, you've got the shit out of the way, but you still have to contend with a hunk of asparagas.

The fact that the super-kiss was shit, or whatever part of the movie you wanna choose (I didn't choose the comparison after all, I'm just defining it), does not make the Mutato-Generator less shit. It just makes it less shit in comparison to shit.

Now, maybe if you'd chosen a comparison that wasn't shit, we'd be cooking with fire. But as it stands, we're still waging a mediocre concept against a shitty concept. The shit of one does not make the other any less mediocre.

No, I'm comparing X-men to the Superman films.

What you're doing is illustrating that fanboy nitpickiness can ruin any movie, which is exactly my point.

Fanboys are so jaded nowadays that no movie can make them happy, unless it's a 12-part HBO miniseries where every bit of dialogue is taken from a comic, and they get a bunch of Oscar winning actors. But then again, that movie would be pretentious, and deserving of scorn.

[Doc Jon]

Ok, I guess to sum it up, Movies can be good and bad, all movies has them. It's sad and annoying, but true. LOL But very interesting convo though. xD

Nah, the point I was trying to illustrate was that fanboys can destroy any film. I've seen X-men picked apart to death on this board, and here it is, happening again.

As 'fans', we somehow find a reason to rip apart any comic film until it is completely devoid of pleasure.

[Beast]

Nah, the point I was trying to illustrate was that fanboys can destroy any film. I've seen X-men picked apart to death on this board, and here it is, happening again.

As 'fans', we somehow find a reason to rip apart any comic film until it is completely devoid of pleasure.

True.....I never really noticed that till you said that. Sometimes you got to put yourself into someone who has no idea what X-Men is and saw the movie for the first time, was it good or bad? That's kinda what I think when it comes to comic book movies. xD But well said.

It's interesting to pick at it sometimes, but I often try to leave it alone and watch the rest. but you both have good points. ^^;