This is not a joke.
In a world-wide exclusive, we'd like to present to you an epic slapfight (no pun intended) between Dan Fraga (Black Flag) and Rob Liefeld (The Mark).
This all went down on Rob Liefeld's boards and many Bothans died to get us this information...
It all starts when people were making a little fun of Dan Fraga on Liefeld's board and he decided to show up. Dan Fraga basically said the past is past and he holds no ill will towards Rob.
That lasted all of 5 minutes.
It led Rob to finding an AICN interview of Fraga and posting it with comments that he made in bold:
"Okay, first I closed the previous thread because getting nasty and I felt the best thing I could do was close it. Regardless of the fact that I respect all the opinions shared, both negative and postitive.
I have no problems with Dan coming in here but as always I'll feel free to respond to the things he says in threads on my boards.
Now to Dan's specific mention of the AICN article, while I remembered hearing about it I had not read it until now and thought I would copy and paste it here to refute many of Dan's claims of what he refers to as "truth".
WARNING: MASSIVE BULLSHIT ALERT
BM: Those comics were released during the boom of the 90’s when books were routinely selling hundreds of thousands of copies and creators were in many cases making the same amount of money. What was it like being a young successful creator during that time at Extreme Studios?
DF: I’d say I was young, though successful is really a matter of perception. I didn’t make the kind of money that people associate with being a successful Image creator. Rob saw to that. The last book that I made “Image money” on was BLOODSTRIKE #1. After that book, I didn’t see any royalties. Other creators on the books I worked on did. Rob was of the opinion that I wasn’t responsible enough to handle that kind of windfall and made the decision to not pay me royalties. It was his to make, unfair as it was.
Okay, let's travel back in time to 1992 and remember that during that period I was one of the most successful creators of the early 90's. I had already transformed New Mutants into a sales powerhouse taking it from 160,000 copies to over 1 million with no gimmicks. I launched the 2nd best selling comic of all time, X-Force and started Image comics with Youngblood. Brigade and Supreme had already launched to sales of over 1 million each on the goodwill of my commercial name and Bloodstrike was no different. The name Dan Fraga meant nothing to the consumer. No more than Marat Mychaels or the name Chucky Brown. You were an unknown, unproven rookie. You were fortunate to be handed such a high profile asignment at the hottest company in comics. I provided tight layouts to the entire first issue of Bloodstrike 1-3, facial expressions, anatomy, composition, they were all covered in the layout process. At the same time in 1992 had Carl Potts or Kieth Giffen provided you those same layouts at Marvel, they would have received half the page rate as well as half the pencillers royalty. As a rookie penciller you would have gotten maybe 125.00 per page and that's generous, especially working from layouts or "breakdowns" as they were also considered. The amount you made on Bloodstrike #1 was beyond what any other penciller at that time was making. I challenge you to find a single penciller from that period of 1993 from Marvel, Valiant, DC or Image that was making comparable dollars. You had a phenomenal deal and were bolstered by a talented inker that adhered to your work, whereas many of my peers and I had to endure inks by artists that were incompatible with our style, fighting to get our individual styles noticed. Bloodstrike was also an expensive book that had a ton of costs associated with it, not the least of which was the rub the blood printing effect that was part of the books appeal.
As to "other creators" guys like Michael Turner approached me some 3 years later because they felt that they were being underpaid, making less than you were in 1996. Perspective on this matter from your end is severely lacking. At least that is my opinion as to your recollection. Add in that you were given great office space throughout your tenure at Extreme and that you were always esteemed by me as an artist, the perspective continues to warp. Yes Dan, things got physical between us, once, after you admitted to smearing another artists table with black india ink and allowing it to stain the carpet in that artists office. 2 mistakes, 2 acts of disrespect. Either way, I feel confident that I gave you the best that my machine, Extreme Studios, had to offer. Extreme was financed with my seed money and gainfully employed over 60 full time employees and we produced hundreds of great pages and comic books during a wild and crazy run that, if you recall, I was very vocal in warning everyone, was only temporary.
You made the mistake in my opinion of leaving Bloodstrike once Kieth Giffen was tapped to take over. I did not want to force anyone to do anything they were not passionate about so I allowed you to walk and then created the opportunity to create your own title, Black Flag. As I write this, I can only laugh at the breadth of opportunity that you were provided, especially in light of the shackles that many of today's young artists are working under. I blame myself for having not been more demanding of you to stay on Bloodstrike as I think you would have reaped unbelievable rewards. If you were totally honest you would admit that you had it better than most would ever imagine. Wether the opportunity reaped the rewards you had hoped was a result of your efforts and a fickle marketplace. For all your drama over the years, I remained interested in you because I was fond of your artwork.
BM: “Image money” was rumored to be tens of thousands of dollars per issue, the hundreds of thousands for those people at the top. Did you find at all that the big money and sales figures led to equally large egos in some cases?
DF: I’m not sure what led to large egos in those days. They were crazy times. All that one could do is speculate. The rumors were way off BTW. They were making considerably more money than tens of thousands per issue. The print runs were in the high hundreds of thousands, some close to a million copies. If you do the math on the price of printing and take out the distribution and retail cut, they were making around 75 cents per issue. That’s a whole lot more than tens of thousands.
This response is absent any factual accounting. It's an imaginary, wishful figure that is not steeped in facts.
I'll run the rest of the interview and respond when I can. But to cut through the massive piles of bile and BS contained in this interview, I would ask one question. Are you, Dan Fraga, being as honest as you possibly can be when looking in the mirror and assessing your past at Extreme? Did you give your best? Did you work as if there was no net or were you always secure that the safety net would catch you? My career was steeped in fear, fear I could not provide for my parents, fear that I would be left behind, wasn't good enough...etc. Did you maximize your opportunities and that includes leaving the studio at some point to separate yourself from the oppression of Extreme...? At what point does personal responsibility play into your career? "
This led Dan Fraga to respond. Please pay attention the part in bold:
"It's your board Rob, and you brought it up, so I'll address you as you are addressing me: here on your board.
Point #1. Nowhere have I ever said that I deserved the money I made on Bloodstrike #1. What I said was that you had promised verbally that I'd make royalties on the following issues, of which I did not receive any. It was your deal to make and your deal to break. I was simply upset about the principle of you not keeping your word. I left Bloodstrike because it went from being a cool "Universal Soldier" kind of book, to a gory (for gore's sake) bloody guts book. Yes, you gave me a break. I will always be grateful for it. Thank you, again. I hope the money you made from our working on those books was a good show too.
Point#2. Your recollection is wrong. The way it went down was that I used that inker's desk, and left a spot of ink on his desk, he was upset because he had asked me to clean up after myself. I missed that spot. He then went into my office and poured and smeared ink on my desk and carpet. I wrote him a very nasty note which you intercepted. You told me that I couldn't go writing letters like that to your inker in your studio. I talked back, and you backhanded me in front of my 12 year old brother and the receptionist. That's where you went from being my hero to just another guy. You lost control like this twice. I also remember a similar altercation during the Extreme tour '95 in Tampa. And it's misleading to say "things got physical between us" That implies that I ever hit you or fought back. No, it was only you hitting me, only you choking me.
Point 3. I had my own book at Image. I did all of the accounting and I was able to see the costs and the profits. If I had a book that had a cover of $1.95, I would make 45% of cover, then deduct my costs from that. I know how much printing costs, I know how much advertising cost. I didn't base my statement on anything but firsthand knowledge of these facts. So if a book cost $1.95 , sells 900,000 and it cost (lets add in the cost of thermal ink) $.40 to print it, and you paid the team say $200,000 to produce it (I'm way over estimating on that), you who did layouts (tight ones) would still profit around $225,000 for that one issue. Multiply that by however many issues between Brigade, Supreme , and Bloodstrike, and we helped make you a multi millionaire on books you didn't draw. So one could say, that you benefitted too, yes?
Point 4. Your only real valid point. No, I did not give my best. I was busy hanging out with you and following your lead. I had my fears too, mostly of setting you off. The oppression that I felt from the rest of the studio was from that the other guys thought that I was your "spy" and didn't want me hanging out with them. I've since had that notion reenforced by those very guys who I'm now friends with. If I had a time machine, I'd have done a lot differently. Mostly, I'd not have been friends with you and stayed strictly a for-hire guy and just worked.
Rob, I don't hate you. I understand that you were going through many different kinds of pressure. If I could go through the time when I met you 20 years ago (November 19th 1989) through when times got crazy, I'd have to say that the two things that changed you from an incorruptible 22 year old, to the person that I had all of those problems with, it'd be your need to impress Todd McFarlane and your unpreparedness for all of what Image was to become with it's money and power. You were 25 with the problems of a CEO and a "hey Spike!" kinda pal to Todd.
Please feel free to dissect any and everything that I have said or written. Again, I view it as the past. I've since moved on. You seem to feel the need to stoke it all by justifying it all. Lets not and let it go. I want to. You brought it up, so I'll engage by following your example. Subsequently, if you need to ban me, I'll understand.
In all of these years, you have never apologized."
You read it right. This is Fraga accusing Rob Liefeld of physical abuse.
But more than that, Rob admits to it!
"Dan, that's up to you to man up and defend yourself. You were a man, not a child. You acted like a punk and I popped you. The other witnesses on the Extreme Tour distinctly remember me smacking you against the bathroom wall. There's no choking but it now lives much bigger as a myth in your head than mine. And that is when you went from being someone I relied on to someone I believed I would have to carry the duration of his time at Extreme. Glad we cleared that up."
We will bring you more on this as it comes in!
Last edited by Doc Jon
on Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
HJJOUNB SAWLWEN HATES MEO!!!! -Royal