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Review Group Week 200 - INVINCIBLE IRON MAN #21

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thefourthman
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Postby thefourthman » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:35 am

Punchy wrote:The current Dark Reign has shown Tony was right, that if the heroes didn't go along with Registration, it would have gone on regardless with someone like Osborn (probably Gyrich back then) in charge and everyone would be fucked. Registration is just a policy, and Tony was right to get involved and steer it to a better place than it would.

I just think most fans read Civil War with pre-conditioned 'Captain America is always right' goggles on and couldn't accept that it was more complex than that. Maybe it's because I'm not American and don't feel a patriotic connection to Steve, but to me, Iron Man was, and has been proven right. Dark Reign would have happened earlier if not for Tony.

:?

and now I am just convinced that Punchy is clearly insane.

I fucking hate Captain America. I think Bucky as Cap was the best thing ever, so don't even start with this patriotic loyalty to Steve Rogers shit with me. They played Cap against type (i.e. his patriotic loyalty) to make a point about Patriotism - Civil War was very much about US Foreign Policy at the time, with Superheroes playing the roles of suspected terrorists being persecuted with out any kind of due process. Tony was the villain, he was written that way in every single Marvel book, except for his own book, where they tried to make you understand his view point.

And again at the end of the day. The New Avengers weren't letting bad guys go to settle their beef with the Mighty Avengers. That is what Ms. Marvel and her cronies did.

Dark Reign is what Registration would have been like if a Crazy fucking asshole villain were in charge of it. It is Registration taking to its faulty slippery slope extreme.
Last edited by thefourthman on Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Punchy » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:37 am

Punchy wrote:I just think most fans read Civil War with pre-conditioned 'Captain America is always right' goggles on and couldn't accept that it was more complex than that. Maybe it's because I'm not American and don't feel a patriotic connection to Steve, but to me, Iron Man was, and has been proven right. Dark Reign would have happened earlier if not for Tony.


To elaborate on this point, remember when Marvel first announced Civil War and had those 'I'm with Captain America' and 'I'm with Iron Man' sigs? They didn't even announce what they were fighting over, no mention of a registration, just that there would be a conflict. Even then, on the basis of no information, I remember most posters at the old Newsarama sided with Cap for no other reason than he was Cap.

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Postby Punchy » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:40 am

thefourthman wrote::?

and now I am just convinced that Punchy is clearly insane.

I fucking hate Captain America. I think Bucky as Cap was the best thing ever, so don't even start with this patriotic loyalty to Steve Rogers shit with me. They played Cap against type (i.e. his patriotic loyalty to make a point about Patriotism - Civil War was very much about US Foreign Policy at the time, with Superheroes playing the roles of suspected terrorists being persecuted with out any kind of due process). Tony was the villain, he was written that way in every single Marvel book, except for his own book, where they tried to make you understand his view point.

And again at the end of the day. The New Avengers weren't letting bad guys go to settle their beef with the Mighty Avengers. That is what Ms. Marvel and her cronies did.

Dark Reign is what Registration would have been like if a Crazy fucking asshole villain were in charge of it. It is Registration taking to its faulty slippery slope extreme.


I'm not going to have another massive argument over something that's nothing really to do with this week's book, I'll just say that it's all a matter of perspective and in my eyes, there was no real villain in Civil War, that's what made it special. People were bringing their own politics (although many didn't seem to understand that Cap was actually the right-wing one) and beliefs to the book, Civil War was very clever in how it divided the audience as well as the characters, almost meta.

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Postby thefourthman » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:00 pm

Punchy wrote:I'm not going to have another massive argument over something that's nothing really to do with this week's book, I'll just say that it's all a matter of perspective and in my eyes, there was no real villain in Civil War, that's what made it special. People were bringing their own politics (although many didn't seem to understand that Cap was actually the right-wing one) and beliefs to the book, Civil War was very clever in how it divided the audience as well as the characters, almost meta.

but it is relevant to this issue... they are redeeming the character. You don't think he needs to be redeemed because you have a different reading of Civil War. It should be apparent to you that you may have a bad reading of the story, because the writer of the book and the editorial department at Marvel want him redeemed and see a need to redeem him. So maybe, again, not to really pick on you, but if everyone else in the world says a duck is duck and you say it is a chicken... you may want to rethink your position. It is one thing to talk about interpretations, but unless Matt Fraction comes on here and says you are right Iron Man was the good guy in Civil War and his story is just meant to shut up fanboys who read the book wrong, I am going to believe all the evidence before my eyes, my reading, everyone else's reading and the stories that Marvel is telling that reinforce that reading.

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Postby Punchy » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:04 pm

thefourthman wrote:but it is relevant to this issue... they are redeeming the character. You don't think he needs to be redeemed because you have a different reading of Civil War. It should be apparent to you that you may have a bad reading of the story, because the writer of the book and the editorial department at Marvel want him redeemed and see a need to redeem him. So maybe, again, not to really pick on you, but if everyone else in the world says a duck is duck and you say it is a chicken... you may want to rethink your position. It is one thing to talk about interpretations, but unless Matt Fraction comes on here and says you are right Iron Man was the good guy in Civil War and his story is just meant to shut up fanboys who read the book wrong, I am going to believe all the evidence before my eyes, my reading, everyone else's reading and the stories that Marvel is telling that reinforce that reading.


To be honest, I don't think Fraction particularly thinks of this as a redemption, he depicted a perfectly heroic King Of The World Tony in the first arc of the book, and had him and Spider-Man bury the hatchet in the standalone #7, he considers Tony a hero. He's also shown how Tony planned all this whilst still in charge of SHIELD.

Marvel also published a book with Tony as a hero for a year and a half after Civil War without feeling the need to put him through a redemption.

And to be honest, I don't see how being lobotomised is a redemption, to me, this whole thing has shown how good Tony was, compare him to Norman, and he's a massive hero.

I think the change is more to do with the impact of the movie than any fan feeling of Tony as a villain.

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Postby Chris » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:05 pm

Punchy wrote:The current Dark Reign has shown Tony was right, that if the heroes didn't go along with Registration, it would have gone on regardless with someone like Osborn (probably Gyrich back then) in charge and everyone would be fucked. Registration is just a policy, and Tony was right to get involved and steer it to a better place than it would.

I just think most fans read Civil War with pre-conditioned 'Captain America is always right' goggles on and couldn't accept that it was more complex than that. Maybe it's because I'm not American and don't feel a patriotic connection to Steve, but to me, Iron Man was, and has been proven right. Dark Reign would have happened earlier if not for Tony.


And I completely disagree with everything in this post.
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Postby Punchy » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:06 pm

Chris wrote:And I completely disagree with everything in this post.


Fair enough, the whole thing is based on perspective, that was the point of Civil War.

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Postby Chris » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:11 pm

Punchy wrote:Fair enough, the whole thing is based on perspective, that was the point of Civil War.


I definitely looked at Tony as the villain of Civil War, personally.

And I loved that, because I was never much of an Iron Man fan. But Civil War made him interesting to me. I actually was hoping that it would end with him having gone off the deep end and embracing his dickish behavior during the event for good.

However, despite that, Fraction has made me a fan of the heroic Tony as well with his run.
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Postby Punchy » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:13 pm

Chris wrote:I definitely looked at Tony as the villain of Civil War, personally.

And I loved that, because I was never much of an Iron Man fan. But Civil War made him interesting to me. I actually was hoping that it would end with him having gone off the deep end and embracing his dickish behavior during the event for good.

However, despite that, Fraction has made me a fan of the heroic Tony as well with his run.


Hey, hero or villain, as long as you're interested in the character, it doesn't really matter.

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Postby 48THRiLLS » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:28 pm

Invincible Iron Man #21
This was probably an odd book to review if you have not been reading the current run, it was not a standout issue but in context of Fraction's current stint on this book it was enjoyable. I will say that I still do not care for Larocca's pencils but I admire the fact that he is a machine and this book is always on time. My only problem with this book is the showing up of Steve Rogers. As excited as I am to see him, I was hoping to see this in Reborn. You see him and Bucky together but what is the context? Is there gonna be 2 Caps? I know there is nothing that could have been done so save the 'but it's called Reborn you should have known he was coming back, blah fucking blah' ...yes, I know. I know they can't delay the books also(and I would not want them too). It is just a bummer that's all. Seeing Thor bring the hammer down on Cap's shield was pretty freaking cool and redeemed some of this issue.
In the end this was a good but not great issue, they can't all be hits ya know...

STORY - 8

ART - 5

OVERALL - 7.5

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Postby Punchy » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:35 am

No more reviews?

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Postby Stalzer2002 » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:59 pm

Punchy wrote: (although many didn't seem to understand that Cap was actually the right-wing one)


Great googly moogly, I thought I was the only one who understood that.
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Postby ****** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:06 pm

Invincible Iron Man #21

Having just dropped IIM the issue before last, this was kind of a weird time for me to be reading an issue. I went ahead and picked up the issue that I had missed when I got this book. #20 encapsulated why I dropped the book in the first place so it's probably a good thing we weren't reviewing it. :D

Over the course of Most Wanted I simply grew bored with this series. The arc drew out too long and my distaste for anything Osborne related made it hard for me to enjoy the book. At the end of the arc, sure Tony was brain dead, but really it seemed like there were a lot of moving pieces in place that ultimately hadn't come together... until this issue.

I gotta say as someone who has been a vocal detractor of his work in the past (with the exception of the brilliant Immortal Iron Fist of course), bravo Matt Fraction! From Pepper's repulsor battery, to the Rescue suit, to the hard drive Maria Hill recovered, it all came together in this issue exceptionally well. This was exactly the kind of story that I like in my Iron Man comics and reminded me why I liked the first arc of this series so much as a successor to Extremis.

Some people like the Larrocca/D'Armata art team on this series, some don't. I'm in the camp that likes it. For me it has a very cool, modern aesthetic to it that I think fits the character perfectly. The photo referencing does look a bit funky at times but it does feel a bit more natural now that Larroca has gone back to using Josh Holloway for Tony.

I guess this means I'm adding Invincible Iron Man back to my pull list now. :?

Story: 9
Art: 7
Overall: 8

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Postby john lewis hawk » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:12 am

In regards to Civil War and the Superhuman Registration Act, there were no villains except the actual characters who've always been villains. Captain America started the fight when he used that device to shut down Iron man's suit but by continuing the fighting and increasing efforts against the other side, both Cap or IM have blood on their hands.

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Postby Chubbles » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:30 am

I'm with Tony Stark in regards to the civil war storyline. I've said this before but the superheroes jobs are to protect people and if having them run around with no consequences endangered people then I'm all for the forced registration. Tony wasn't trying to make their identities public knowledge, he was going to store them in his head just so that if shit hit the fan there would be accountability. I'm a huge mark for Cap but I was with Tony throughout.

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