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by **statnut** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:25 pm

SI.com is saying that John Gibbons will be replaced by Cito Gaston in Toronto.

by **The Juan Percenter** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:26 pm

statnut wrote:SI.com is saying that John Gibbons will be replaced by Cito Gaston in Toronto.

WTF? What's next - the Raiders re-hire Art Shell? Oh wait...

by **rdrsfn82** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:30 pm

milton73 wrote:WTF? What's next - the Raiders re-hire Art Shell? Oh wait...

I hate you. It's not cool to joke about such things. Mainly because there's always a chance of it happening again. He could become a new era version of Billy Martin, except without the winning and with more crying by the fans.

by **NedPepper** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:11 pm

D wrote:I can't believe people are comparing Glavine to Mussina. We're all homers to one degree or another(ranging from low homerness to full blown Fraging) but Glavine and Mussina? For fuck's sake people.

Seems people aren't remembering the Tom Glavine in his prime when that circle change was just nasty.

And if my memory is correct, (although it's awfully shoddy these days) Glavine was the ace of the Braves for at least a year or two. And even if he wasn't, he was on the same team as Maddux and Smoltz!

Damn, those were great days. Three HOF's. And once upon a time, the Braves one, two, three guys in the rotation. That's a pitching staff.

Some of those years, you had Neagle has the fourth guy. And then there was the sad story of Steve Avery.

by **rdrsfn82** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:22 pm

NedPepper wrote:Seems people aren't remembering the Tom Glavine in his prime when that circle change was just nasty.

And if my memory is correct, (although it's awfully shoddy these days) Glavine was the ace of the Braves for at least a year or two. And even if he wasn't, he was on the same team as Maddux and Smoltz!

Damn, those were great days. Three HOF's. And once upon a time, the Braves one, two, three guys in the rotation. That's a pitching staff.

Some of those years, you had Neagle has the fourth guy. And then there was the sad story of Steve Avery.

Millwood had a nice couple years as well as the fourth guy. It really was an amazing run.

by **statnut** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:25 pm

NedPepper wrote:Seems people aren't remembering the Tom Glavine in his prime when that circle change was just nasty.

And if my memory is correct, (although it's awfully shoddy these days) Glavine was the ace of the Braves for at least a year or two. And even if he wasn't, he was on the same team as Maddux and Smoltz!

Damn, those were great days. Three HOF's. And once upon a time, the Braves one, two, three guys in the rotation. That's a pitching staff.

Some of those years, you had Neagle has the fourth guy. And then there was the sad story of Steve Avery.

Hey, I made sure to continue to bring that point up! :-D

But yeah, that was an amazing rotation. I dont think we'll ever see something like again, for that long of a period.

by **C20Percent** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:29 pm

rdrsfn82 wrote:That's like saying, what if I had JD Drew not be injured every year and average 40 HRs with one MVP would he be considered a better player?

Sure if you make his numbers better and give him a dominant year with a memorable postseason run he might have a better case, but that doesn't prove anything.

I was more-or-less looking for a standard to go by; I wasn't trying to make a case on imaginary numbers.

by **rdrsfn82** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:35 pm

C20Percent wrote:I was more-or-less looking for a standard to go by; I wasn't trying to make a case on imaginary numbers.

I think the problem is that you can't have a standard, because there isn't a standard case that exists.

Pedro Martinez is a HoF pitcher in my eyes, but if you went solely by numbers and benchmarks I don't think he's even close. But when you look deeper and see that he was the best pitcher in the league for a 4 year period, and add in the unquantifiable aspects he's in. If the Hall was based solely on benchmarks and stats, it would be really really really easy to judge who gets in and who is out. Most of the time it's a gut feeling based on what you saw more than what was accomplished. At least that's the way I see it.

by **C20Percent** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:38 pm

rdrsfn82 wrote:I think the problem is that you can't have a standard, because there isn't a standard case that exists.

Pedro Martinez is a HoF pitcher in my eyes, but if you went solely by numbers and benchmarks I don't think he's even close. But when you look deeper and see that he was the best pitcher in the league for a 4 year period, and add in the unquantifiable aspects he's in. If the Hall was based solely on benchmarks and stats, it would be really really really easy to judge who gets in and who is out. Most of the time it's a gut feeling based on what you saw more than what was accomplished. At least that's the way I see it.

I see your point, but I think Pedro is a bad example:

* 3x Cy Young Award winner (1997, 1999, 2000)
* 8x All-Star selection (1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2005, 2006)
* World Series champion in 2004
* Won AL Triple crown in 1999
* Led AL in wins in 1999
* Led NL in era in 1997
* Led AL in era in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003
* Led AL in strikeouts in 1999, 2000, 2002

by **rdrsfn82** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:46 pm

C20Percent wrote:I see your point, but I think Pedro is a bad example:

* 3x Cy Young Award winner (1997, 1999, 2000)
* 8x All-Star selection (1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2005, 2006)
* World Series champion in 2004
* Won AL Triple crown in 1999
* Led AL in wins in 1999
* Led NL in era in 1997
* Led AL in era in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003
* Led AL in strikeouts in 1999, 2000, 2002

Yeah he might not be the best example, but he's a guy who's great years are really really really great, but doesn't have a lot of other stuff due to injuries. A better example is out there I'm sure.

by **ReturnoftheMack** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:48 pm

D wrote:I can't believe people are comparing Glavine to Mussina. We're all homers to one degree or another(ranging from low homerness to full blown Fraging) but Glavine and Mussina? For fuck's sake people.

I resent that.

I never compared the two, Glavine is a definite HOFer. But I will compare Mussina to Schilling.