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[Spidey-Man]

Well, Simone is not only writing Wonder Woman but also has a Secret Six ongoing about to start, Palmiotti writes Jonah Hex and is about to have a Power Girl ongoing on the schedule, Busiek is writing this year's weekly book and Nicieza is co-plotting plus James Robinson (who I forgot to mention) is about to start writing Superman and his own Justice League book.

So you're wrong.

Let me rephrase. These are all good writers. I like Busiek a lot. But are they "hot" writers? For example, Jim Lee on Batman is #1, Jim Lee on X-Men would shoot to #1, etc.

Bendis, is a hot writer, even if I don't like him. Millar is a hot writer, even if I find it hit and miss.

These books they are doing may be good, they may long term work out in somewhat increasing sales, but are they going to be instant hits? Blockbusters? THat's why I was using the Tom Cruise example.

[Nightfly]

Sorry, but I don't agree with him. One man's meat is another man's poison, Rob. Marvel is, to me, the worst it has ever been just now, while DC is on an uptick. Others see things a different way.

For that reason, Shooter's absolutist ideas are fundamentally misguided, if not outright wrong.

Seconded. Emphasis mine.

[Keb]

Disassembled was not (and it wasn't an event.. it was just an arc in one book, so it's not comparable)

If Joe Quesada was putting out books with decreasing quality every year, I would want him out as well.

How long are people supposed to wait for things to turn around for DC? Didio is not perfect. I don't understand DC apologists think he's so infallible. I just don't think he gets it. He's not the man for the job.

I think it was. There were tons of tie-ins and it was hyped as if it were. They just made it part of the Avengers numbering to discontinue the Avengers book. It was also hyped as a summer event, the summer event to begin all summer events.

As for Joe Q, he's made bad moves as well. I don't like him, nor do I like what he's done with Marvel in the past. However, I'm not a big DC fan, nor am I a Didio Defender or a DC Apologist. I just don't buy into all the hype. On the other hand, I'm not nearly as attached to DC heroes like The Question or the Flash like I am to Spiderman or the X-Men.

I think we're getting two different groups of people here with a lot of different opinions.

[C20Percent]

As I said though, Simone's about to start on Secret Six as well as Wonder Woman and Palmiotti's Power Girl is coming soon. Also, Nicieza's taking over as the new writer on Robin.

And of those Marvel writers you list: Ellis is not on much there anymore (he's leaving Thunderbolts), and aside from Fraction and Brubaker the others aren't that good or exciting.

If you think that Simone, Palmiotti, and Nicieza compare favorably to Bendis, Millar, Aaron, and Slott, then we just have a fundamental disagreement over talent.

And yes, Ellis is leaving Thunderbolts, but he's jumping on Astonishing X-Men so it's basically win-loss.

I think if you switched all of Marvel's writers with DC's writers, then the numbers would change almost overnight.

[Spidey-Man]

I think the movies do make a difference.

It may not bring in new readers.

But i think old readers get more interested in the characters. I am picking up two Iron Man books Who'd a thunk?

and lapsed readers may come back through that.

The one area where DC consistently trumps Marvel is with their Vertigo line. Marvel has nothing comparable.

[nietoperz]

If you think that Simone, Palmiotti, and Nicieza compare favorably to Bendis, Millar, Aaron, and Slott, then we just have a fundamental disagreement over talent.

I do and we do (apart from Aaron, actually - though he writes for Vertigo too). Millar and Bendis in particular are writers I would cross the street to avoid.

[Keb]

Bendis and Millar are, I believe, one-trick ponies. Millar writes celebrities very well. Bendis writes hardboiled detectives very well. Marvel doesn't get that.

Geoff Johns writes superheroes very well. DC gets that.

[lancer_man]

I do and we do (apart from Aaron, actually - though he writes for Vertigo too). Millar and Bendis in particular are writers I would cross the street to avoid.

But they put people in the seats. And this discussion is about that and not quality of work.

[C20Percent]

I do and we do (apart from Aaron, actually - though he writes for Vertigo too). Millar and Bendis in particular are writers I would cross the street to avoid.

Haha

Well, in that case -- let me recommend Kick-Ass, Ultimates Volume 1 & 2, Wolverine, Fantastic Four, 1985, Ultimate Spider-Man, Daredevil, and New Avengers.

[nietoperz]

But they put people in the seats. And this discussion is about that and not quality of work.

C20 Percent's comments were about quality of work, though - all this is stemming from the dumb Jim Shooter quote that Rob posted.

[McKegan]

Infinite Crises, and particularly One Year Later ruined any goodwilll DC had developed with fans from Identity Crises and the lead into IC. I think they were doing so well because they'd broken through to a lot of readers who'd never been big DC readers. For myself, the only DC I ever regualrly read was Vertigo books, until Identity Crises.

But then they ruined it with a lackluster Infinite Crises, which would have been forgivable if they came out of that with some good books. But the relaunches of their 'holy' Trinity were botched. Heinberg's Wonder Woman, delays in Action Comics, fill-ins mid-arc of Morrison's Batman.

What they told me, as a reader, is if they couldn't get shit together on their flagship characters then there's little expectation of quality in the rest of their line. It didn't help that coming out of Infinite Crises the current status quo was vague, a lot of creators were more concerned with nostalgic masturbation rather than forging ahead with new ideas. Even when they get it right, like with the Sinestro Corp War, DC finds a way of fubaring by spoiling major storybeats outside the event.

I'm sorry, but for the most part DC has been crap, and for every step forward they manage to hobble themselves. However bad you percieve OMD to be, it only really affects the Spidey books, it's not the linewide clusterfuck that Countdown and Death of the New Gods was.

That all said, I'm liking Final Crises, so far.

[nietoperz]

Haha

Well, in that case -- let me recommend Kick-Ass, Ultimates Volume 1 & 2, Wolverine, Fantastic Four, 1985, Ultimate Spider-Man, Daredevil, and New Avengers.

I've read many of those and hated them with a passion (only 1985 and Kick-Ass have eluded me so far, though I can promise that they will continue to do so).

[Chris]

The one area where DC consistently trumps Marvel is with their Vertigo line. Marvel has nothing comparable.

Yeah.. probably the closest thing would be MAX or Icon, but neither has enough titles.

[C20Percent]

C20 Percent's comments were about quality of work, though - all this is stemming from the dumb Jim Shooter quote that Rob posted.

No, no -- not at all. I didn't give that Jim Shooter quote a second look. I just don't believe that "hot" writers and quality writers are mutually exclusive.

I do believe there are two different readers out there -- those that read for the characters and those that read for the creators, and I probably fall into the latter group. But, there are books whose characters I like too much to drop -- Birds of Prey, Teen Titans, Nightwing (pre-Tomasi), Outsiders, and Robin just to name a few.

I want DC to produce good books, which was one reason I was so upset they let Jason Aaron go -- I'd rather see him on Robin, JLA, Superman, Outsiders because those are all books I read that could use some life.

[Keb]

Haha

Well, in that case -- let me recommend Kick-Ass, Ultimates Volume 1 & 2, Wolverine, Fantastic Four, 1985, Ultimate Spider-Man, Daredevil, and New Avengers.

Ultimates is a good book about celebrities with superpowers. Daredevil was REALLY good too. Wolverine was a waste of time and money, Ultimate Spiderman and New Avengers were incredibly stupid and I haven't read any of the others precisely because of that.

And Vertigo books are better than most of what Marvel and DC has.