Zechs wrote:Did I mention the clones anywhere? Your the one who brought that up Strict. He pretty much thinks of them lesser than the actual people in his life save for Rex since the clone is pretty damn good at his job. You really are being blind to the whole hints to his fall to this series?
Bullshit. Anakin doesn't treat his clone soldiers any differently than anyone else, and he'll go out of his way to save them when necessary. You're blind if you haven't noticed that.
And I thought the reason I brought up the clones was fuckin' clear: to show that he will risk his life for ANYBODY
, like any other hero would.
I mean you just glaringly seem to forget I just pointed out areas where the show goes on to prove that Anakin isn't the most morally just character on the show. Besides he isn't the only main character on the show. Remember Obi-Wan and Ahsoka share the spotlight too in this. It just isn't all about Anakin.
There's a difference between contradicting what you've pointed out and ignoring it. In other words, I'm not ignoring anything you've said. I'm disagreeing with it.
. My point is that the Jedi are, historically and specifically, no more moral than Anakin has been shown to be. Or...did you glaringly forget where I said that earlier? The examples I gave? Did you miss that?
Anakin just isn't a hero. He's a hero with a serious amount of flaws. The show points that out time and again. Hell the Jedi and Admirals roll their eyes at a Skywalker plan due to how chaotic and insane it is.
Having a crazy plan doesn't make any person evil, or more susceptible to evil, and it's an illogical leap to submit this as evidence of the same.
You also do remember Anakin not only killed the men who murdered his mother, but he also went on to kill everything that was alive in that campsite. He murdered women and children who had nothing to do at all with the damn kidnapping. Instead of a rescue mission it turns into a slaughter everything that moves. That's not very heroic at all. Sure you could look at it that way but the Sand People are a natural order on that planet. They have a purpose and their purpose is chaos. Anakin should have understood just take his mom's body and get the hell out of dodge. That would be the Jedi thing to do.
You're so full of shit here. the Sand People serve a natural purpose? Abducting and torturing innocent people? That's their natural purpose?
Are you shitting me?
I mean, you're making another leap here in the assumption that the Sand People are part of any sort of natural order. And you're ignoring the fact that they willfully attack people with zero provocation. Repeatedly.The evidence of this is in the movies themselves. They tortured Shmi nearly to death. And she finally did die of her injuries. They just snatched her up for no reason and tied her up and tortured her. I mean, did you think the bitch just died of cervical cancer or some shit?
And those little baby Sand people (which I did mention, BTW) are gonna grow up to do the same thing.
If you've got a rat infestation in your house, are you not gonna kill the babies and mommies just because they're babies and mommies? And the Sand People are a thousand times worse than rats, because they can use guns.
It's ironic that you're pissed at me for "ignoring" what you've said, when you are clearly either ignoring or simply not reading what I've said.
Instead again he goes on a killing spree succumbing to the dark side.It wasn't in Obi-Wan's case where it was kill or be killed when he fought Maul. However even he at the beginning of that duel was using it and his emotions where used against him by Maul. Obi-Wan calmed the hell up and then beat Maul. He showed no satisfaction in doing it. His first instinct was checking on Qui-Gon.
So, by your logic, Anakin should have let this tribe of Tuskens...what? Continue to abduct and murder innocent people? Would you really spare your mercy for murderers and not for innocent people like Anakin's mom? That's fucking nonsense.
And obi-Wan's first instinct wasn't to check on Qui-Gon. His first instinct was to kill the shit out of the guy who killed the shit out of his mentor. Which is a perfectly natural emotion to feel. He succumbed to his rage, despite the fact that he eventually regained control. So did Anakin. So did Nomi. So did Revan. So did Luke. Many Jedi have acted out of rage, and it didn't mean they were forever tainted by the Dark Side.
Luke when he went ape shit on Vader was exactly the point. Vader provoked him enough to use the dark side to just kick the holy hell out of his father. If not for Luke realizing this he'd succumb to the same fate his father had. And he was using the force as a defensive move when the guards went offensive in not letting him pass. Note he stopped the moment they backed away with the chock and didn't continue as something his father would have done.
Luke wasn't using the Dark Side to whup his dad. He was using his skills with a lightsaber. he also happened to be pissed is all. The point here, again, is that many Jedi have acted while in a rage, and it didn't damn then immediately and forever to the dark side. Anakin used his rage to kill a group of willfully evil beings who routinely show an inclination to harm others. He felt guilty about it, but that's a good thing.
And no Zechs, the mere use of Force Choke is a Dark Side act. It uses Dark Side energy to specifically harm the target. That's Dark Side, simple and plain. You're making excuses for Luke, but they don't stand up to reason. He used an evil power for his own benefit, and it didn't condemn him eternally to evil. The first time Anakin used Force Choke was after he'd already turned to the Dark Side. Shit, those guards were just fuckin' doing their job. He was the one who was trespassing on private property. He broke the fuck in, and they, as the guards of the place
are supposed to stop intruders.
To make matters worse, the fckers didn't even attack him. They just moved to stop him. And before they had a chance to do anything else, he pimp choked them.
Gammoreans are probably just as weak-minded as the average Stormtrooper, so Luke could have used the Jedi Mind Trick on them. But he willfully chose to use a Dark Side technique. Anakin didn't use ANY
Dark Side powers until after he'd already turned evil.
And again, the point here is that this didn't condemn him to evil.
One question, though: it's okay to use the Dark Side to Force Choke some guys who are just doing their job, and who literally haven't harmed anyone, but it's bad-bad-bad to kill a bunch of Tuskens who have already harmed people, and will again? Shit, we KNOW
they'll continue to attack people, because 20 years down the line, they attack Luke without any provocation. And that means, yes, even their kids are a threat, because they'll grow up to be big and strong Tuskens. And the women are a threat because guess who makes baby Tuskens?
Again the show actually shows off the negative traits of Anakin. They show that this guy has some pretty huge flaws in him and if those are cracked any further the dude is going to have a meltdown. RoTS proved that very point. Again you keep not noticing I've given evidence back and forth throughout the series thus far showing that Anakin isn't all that heroic in the show. That shady side does show up. Or does the fact that when a bad guy says to Obi-Wan and neutral politician, "Which one of you will buck up and commit cold blooded murder? Cause if you don't I commit an evil act ha ha!" Guess who stepped up to that challenge? It wasn't Obi-Wan, it was Anakin.
I'm disagreeing with your conclusions about your so-called evidence. Not ignoring it. I've adressed every point you've raised. And given the fact that you're doing exactly what you seem to think I've been doing, it would be great if you could shut the hell up about that shit.
What I've been telling you is that every one of Anakin's "bad traits" in the show has been seen in Jedi throughout the history of the Order. So, if Anakin is a bad guy because he killed some bad guys in anger, then so is Nomi Sunrider, who is considered one of the greatest Jedi in history.
He snuck up behind the dude and killed him. They further hammered home the point with the friggin Imperial March playing as the bad guy coughed his last breath with Anakin standing up going, "What? He had a bomb."
Even more Anakin was about to murder Cad Bane as well if not for the situation Bane dealt. Anakin is hardly heroic in this. It showcases everything the good and the bad. So go on explain the said plot points.
So...are you trying to make the argument that killing bad guys IN A WAR
makes a hero into a bad guy? Or, that it's evidence that he's doing bad things when he kills the bad guys? Before they can hurt more
people than they already have?
Fucking Cad Bane is a ruthless, merciless sum'bitch who has killed people before and is more than willing to do so again. He was going to blow up the entire Senate building just to keep anyone from chasing him. He's a murderer who has taken advantage of mercy and kindness afforded to him, to threaten innocents again and again. Are you saying Anakin should have allowed Bane the opportunity to kill some more people before he was justified in trying to kill Bane?
At what point in your estimation is it alright to kill a bad guy?
The Jedi are mistaken about a great many things, to use Palpy's own words.
1. Rather than teach their students how to confront and control their emotions, they instead teach them to repress their emotions. And as a result, we get jedi masters running around who are utterly uninterested in freeing slaves from oppression. What? It's more moral for the Jedi to focus on resolving an economic dispute than stopping the institutionalized slavery the Hutts have created?
2. The Jedi have absolutely know idea what it takes to fight a war. If you don't kill the enemy, the enemy will kill you. Or your friends. Shit, maybe the jedi should watch Saving Private Ryan, and pay close attention to the mercy Upham showed that German. Remember? The one who ended up killing Tom Hanks' character? Even if the enemy is helpless, a soldier doesn't always have the luxury of leaving them to live, because they might end up fighting another day.
And the Jedi didn't have to get involved in this war. They certainly didn't get involved in the Mandalorian War, and they were every bit the threat to the Galaxy that the Trade Feddies were. Hell, the Sith got involved, supporting the Mandies, and still, the jedi chose not to get involved. And they didn't want to get involved back then, because of their utter and absolute fear of temptation. So, they could have avoided the moral ambiguity of this war if they wanted to. They chose to get involved, so they need to understand that war demands cruelty of the warrior.
A good warrior focuses that cruelty. Kills when he must, even though the act of killing is wrong. He may feel guilt or even horror at what he's done, but he does this because it needs to be done.
Now, killing a shit ton of bad guys is quite a good distance from eagerly killing Younglings. And no, fuck no, nothing we've seen in the show or the movies explains how Anakin goes from being afraid for padme to baby-killer in a single five minute scene. Nothing you've pointed out here as an example even comes close to laying the groundwork for that shift in behavior. I haven't been ignoring you. I've been saying your argument is insufficient to the task of explaining why Anakin goes from being a good soldier and a good man to murdering children.