The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[LOLtron]

The Outhouse's ElijahSnowFan stops by to talk about which of DC's pending 52 titles will be the first to go!


The Preamble of Moderate Length

This week, "5 Things" is looping back to the DC revamp to discuss a few thoughts that have come to mind as the shock has worn off and readers have been told what 52 books DC will publish initially in the fall.

Now, before we start rolling, let's be honest with ourselves: Every person should be mature enough to know that nothing in comic books is permanent -- for instance, I NEVER thought I would read a story set in the Modern Age with Bucky in it -- and that somehow, some way, the legal requirements of copyrights and character usage mean Shades and Comanche will always return to plague Power Man & Iron Fist, Rick Jones is going to be featured in a storyline every decade or so, and somebody's going to be named "the Signalman."

So, in other words, losing the Justice Society of America for whatever period of time DC is thinking is appropriate simply isn't that big of a deal -- in theory.

At the same time, however, I've long felt that the casualness of comic companies and creators toward reader attachment to certain characters and properties is troubling at best, career-defining at worst.

Even with the caveat that message board chatter isn't scientific nor measurable for performance, creators and characters ignore it at their peril. I wouldn't. All factors need to be considered, when you're asking customers for their money. I'm in an industry that isn't as loose as the comic book industry, where at some level, readers do acknowledge that creators are going to take characters in directions they may not like. Personally, I still take particular care to monitor customer feedback for the product I'm responsible for. Just because a company CAN put something out doesn't mean it SHOULD. Just because a segment of readers is unhappy doesn't mean that they're whiners -- trust me, that is as dangerous a line of thinking for a company as I've ever seen. Because sometimes, mistakes are made by companies. Sometimes, creators get it wrong.

What happens when they do?

That's where "5 Things I Think I Know" is going this week: Some creators may not realize it, and DC may not realize it, but it's going to be difficult to execute some of these relaunches. I do believe DC has performed due diligence and believes there is a market for some of these concepts, but I'll be blunt: I think some of these books are dead on arrival, when you have 52 first issues coming, and I do wonder what comes next: Will DC simply scale back their line to Superman/Batman/Green Lantern/Justice League material, or will there be a second wave of launches with possibly the Justice Society and Captain Marvel/Thunder, and so on?

That's why this relaunch is so important: Failure is inevitable, but I don't know if it's an option. Know what I mean?

5 Things I Think I Know, DC Revamp "Dead on Arrival" Edition

5. Who even likes Deathstroke, anymore?: Hey, I'll admit that Slade Wilson's power-set is interesting -- the whole "90 percent of your brain" thing is fine, in an industry where people fly and block bullets with bracelets -- but come on. The character's limited. He carries around guns and swords, and while he can kill as many redshirts as DC deems appropriate, who else does anybody want to see killed by this lame-assed concept? This character's fate was sealed when Ryan Choi got smoked. Why? Because nobody wants to see that. Readers want the threat of danger. But no, we do not want Deathstroke killing superheroes. That's why this book is DOA: Nobody likes this character anymore. Truthfully, I think DC could move 100,000 units of "The Death of Deathstroke" far quicker than they'll move anything they relaunch with character whose time likely has passed...

4. War is hell, and these sales numbers might be: I have read many Sgt. Rock and Easy Company stories. I've read stories featuring the Losers and the Haunted Tank and the Blackhawks and the Unknown Soldier and Gravedigger. I enjoyed them all. But that was 30-plus years ago, when comics were simpler and readers weren't as demanding. Now? We've seen Black Adam KILL COUNTRIES. So no, I don't think anybody's particularly aching to read how the Men of War are operating in a world where bullets bounce off some individuals. Maybe it could work in a separate setting...but mixing superheroes and villains and bullets just doesn't seem feasible for a long period of time.

3. For a relaunch, Katar Hol is better than Carter Hall: I would've gone with "Katar Hol, Thanagarian cop stranded on Earth," about a billion times faster than I would've gone with "Carter Hall, Savage Archeaolgist." Why? You get so many more storylines that are more compelling quickly. Again, the key word is "quickly." I just have a feeling that Hawkman is going to be so complex to relaunch, combined with the limitations of the character to begin with, that this book is DOA. I honestly don't think it has anything to do with creators on this one. Carter Hall -- man, that is a limited character and concept.

2. I love Captain Atom, but nope, this ain't working: A Captain Atom that appears to be more Doctor Manhattan than "energy-based powerhouse"...that isn't going to work for an extended period. Why? Because it doesn't work when you mix that character with the Batmans and Nightwings of the world. And, at some point, you will. Bottom line: Anybody who has read or seen "Watchmen" knows what Doctor Manhattan did to Rorshach. If you remind people of that too closely, again, you're pulling the curtain back too far, and people start wondering why in the world the Joker isn't a bloody stain in the snow when he irritates the wrong guy. I am curious to see how quickly DC realizes that some power sets need to be toned down, simply for the long-term viability of the character.

1. Would anybody have rioted if Supergirl was in a second wave of relaunches?: This character getting a book surprised me, even though I understand that the diversity issue is important. But really, with the exception of the very good Gates/Igle run, has anybody really cared about this character all that much? Is DC a lesser company without Supergirl? I doubt that. And I don't think readers are going to support this concept when they have so many other possibilities to choose from in the fall.

That's it for this week...we'll try to do better in the next!

Written or Contributed by: ElijahSnowFan


http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/comics-comic-books-news-reviews-features/features/five-things-i-think-i-know/14330-5-things-i-think-i-know-dcs-dead-on-arrival-relaunches.html/

[outsider]

But really, with the exception of the very good Gates/Igle run, has anybody really cared about this character all that much?

Kara Zor-El? No.

PAD's Linda Danvers? Hell yes. When news of that series getting the axe came out, last-minute sales increased on the series in a (futile) push to save it.

[mrorangesoda]

Those War books are aimed at all of the people playing call of duty and gears of war, if this thing hits right (marketing/quality of material) I can see them being popular. Same with Deathstroke actually (People who don't give a shit about the Titans book). Grown up GI Joe.
Supergirl should be really popular. It should be the book that a 10 year old girl, 18 year old guy, 33 year old woman, and the 10 year old's dad can all buy and enjoy. Bitchy alien solicit doesn't scream that at me though. I think they missed a big chance.

[Chesscub]

I wish Sterling was still writing Supergirl. The Bizarro story was fun. Heck I wish that Nick wrote more than one issue.

[Chesscub]

I'm giving the war books a shot. If done right they can be really good. Blackhawks looks interesting.

[BlueStreak]

Those War books are aimed at all of the people playing call of duty and gears of war, if this thing hits right (marketing/quality of material) I can see them being popular. Same with Deathstroke actually (People who don't give a shit about the Titans book). Grown up GI Joe.

Yeah, it's kind of obvious that not all of these comics are being marketed towards typical readers. Do I have any strong desire to read about a redesigned Deathstroke that bears more than a few similarities to the redesigned Scorpion in the new Mortal Kombat game? Not particularly.

Does my 12 year old cousin who plays Gears of War and CoD for about 8 hours a day after seeing the costume? Yup.

What's even more hilarious is the idiots over on CBR lambasting I, Vampire. "Who the hell wants to read about a bunch of sexy vampires? It's not like that's the popular thing nowadays!!!1!"

[bkthomson]

Posted to Facebook.

[ElijahSnowFan]

See, that's the thing I wish I knew: How many units have to move -- and for which book -- is DC looking for to continue to publish a particular franchise?

For instance, does 12,000 units of Sgt. Rock make DC less happy, more happy, or equally happy as 55,000 units of Teen Titans? Blackhawks, too? The aforementioned, I, Vampire?

Again, it's possible that one of those kinds of books breaks through -- possible. But the reality is, with 52 books dropping...man, those are some long odds that Deathstroke's selling 45K, right? When I don't even know if Green Arrow is, or Firestorm. Right?

For the record: I have every issue of Larry Hama's G.I. Joe run from Marvel. I LOVE that stuff. I have Devil's Due's take on G.I. Joe, as well. I haven't gotten as into the IDW stuff, but at some point, I'm sure I'll try to pull together a run of it.

So believe me, I'm not saying that style of comic book can't be entertaining. It can be VERY entertaining.

My question/concern, moreso, is dropping those kinds of titles in amongst a deluge of 52. That...is gonna be hard on many books, many concepts. Because we all know that Marvel, Image, IDW, Dynamite, etc., aren't going to roll over and not publish a month or two so readers get a chance to sample 25 or so DC books, including concepts they haven't seen from the publisher in quite some time.

I would definitely kill a hobo or two to find out what numbers DC is looking for, with some of the different fare, that they would view as a successful launch.

[outsider]

Maybe Warner Brothers is looking for a reason to kill the floppy version of those properties, and who else is better at wholesale death these days than Geoff Johns?!

/conspiracytheory'd

[BlueStreak]

The fact of the matter is that DC is long overdue for new ways at looking at the comic book industry. IF they can attract readers with books like I, Vampire or Men of War and get them to take a look at the rest of the #1s hitting the shelves, then there's a whole new bunch of interested readers to exploit.

The key to this whole thing is outside of the box marketing to make this thing worthwhile. If they focus on the couple hundred thousand readers that currently pick up books, this whole thing will be a giant failure. It's time to look to expand the readership instead of trying to prevent contraction of the current market.

[ElijahSnowFan]

The fact of the matter is that DC is long overdue for new ways at looking at the comic book industry. IF they can attract readers with books like I, Vampire or Men of War and get them to take a look at the rest of the #1s hitting the shelves, then there's a whole new bunch of interested readers to exploit.

The key to this whole thing is outside of the box marketing to make this thing worthwhile. If they focus on the couple hundred thousand readers that currently pick up books, this whole thing will be a giant failure. It's time to look to expand the readership instead of trying to prevent contraction of the current market.

I agree with this, but man...that's the kicker. Is DC/Warner Brothers clever enough to tap into those potential readers? Are there nimble enough thinkers at the top of this food chain to feed everybody else?

Networks and newspapers and magazines are part of their multimedia empire. I'm sure they can pull together a game platform if they chose -- hell, if Turok: Dinosaur Hunter can get a game, then I'm certainly not saying that Men of War can't.

But see, if it was me...I'd already HAVE "Men of War: Game of Death," ready for launch for your next generation gaming systems, complete with cool trailers on videogame websites. And that stuff would be as good as I could possibly make it.

I mean, I'd already have that stuff READY TO GO. Then you get the full impact of corporate synergy. You might be able to channel the full might and fury of the Nerd Armada. (Of which I am a proud member.)

DC/Warner Brothers...I wonder just how smooth those guys are. I just...wonder.

[Timbales]

3. For a relaunch, Katar Hol is better than Carter Hall: I would've gone with "Katar Hol, Thanagarian cop stranded on Earth," about a billion times faster than I would've gone with "Carter Hall, Savage Archeaolgist." Why? You get so many more storylines that are more compelling quickly. Again, the key word is "quickly." I just have a feeling that Hawkman is going to be so complex to relaunch, combined with the limitations of the character to begin with, that this book is DOA. I honestly don't think it has anything to do with creators on this one. Carter Hall -- man, that is a limited character and concept.

disagree, I have no interest in another space cop book. I think "Indiana Jones as a super hero" has more legs.

[ElijahSnowFan]

disagree, I have no interest in another space cop book. I think "Indiana Jones as a super hero" has more legs.

Hmmm. In a movie setting, I agree -- Indiana Jones is kinda cool when you're actually seeing things moving, with surround sound and the like. But even so, his adventures were set in the 1930s/1940s. I do believe one reason "Crystal Skull" was lackluster was because they moved it into a time after the Atomic Bomb. A bullwhip's not doing much against that, when tanks and machine guns and everything else became so much more mainstream, right? That's why the pulp era was diminished so greatly...

But in comic books...I don't know. I think Carter Hall is simply tougher to pull off visually, for the types of things he has traditionally faced, than if you have an entire world of sci-fi to pull from, like you could with Hawkman.

One thing I wouldn't be afraid to do: Have Hawkman hang out in Skartaris a bit. That could be kinda fun, right? I freely admit, though, I just flat-out struggle with the concept of Carter Hall in the 21st century. I just flat-out struggle with it.

[Stalzer2002]

disagree, I have no interest in another space cop book. I think "Indiana Jones as a super hero" has more legs.

Agreed. In a universe where you have multiple aliens and multiple space cops, that's not nearly a strong enough hook for a series. But Carter Hall, archeologist can draw on thousands of years of human history for stories, especially if you play up the reincarnation angle. Remember how awesome the "Tales from the Book of the Iron Fist" issues of Immortal Iron Fist were?

[Cat-Scratch]

Batwing... dead on arrival for being lame.