The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

by chap22 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:15 pm

Punchy wrote:
Exactly, Daredevil was a character who's actions had consequences when the tone was dark. A swashbuckling DD goes against those consequences unless it's the result of a mental breakdown.

by Punchy » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:20 pm

chap22 wrote:Or a mix of denial plus refusal to dwell on the past. People refuse to be depressed or refuse to be miserable in the face of bad circumstances all the time; doesn't mean they've necessarily had a breakdown.

But Waid may play it that way, and I'll buy his explanation either way. But let's not act like Matt hasn't done this before.

by Johnny Smith » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:45 pm

chap22 wrote:meh, you talk about Waid establihing he may have gone through a psychotic break now, but marrying Milla in the first place was the result of a psychotic break. Bendis pretty clearly set that out.

and why can't he just move on? there's precedent!! Matt moved on pretty damn quick after Heather Glenn killed herself because being with Matt drove her nuts...at least Milla's still sucking in air and blowing it back out again.

as far as Milla goes, good riddance to bad rubbish, IMMO. if Waid never mentions her, it'll be too soon.

by Tintin Quarantino » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:26 pm

by Punchy » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:42 pm

Asmodeus Jones wrote:Still believe deep at the heart of this debate is readers' constant fear of change. Even those who advocate for it in comics grieve mightily when it comes for something they happened to be liking just fine.

Also, no one has a problem with Peter Parker's persona when he quips his way through his darkest hours, and that character has also had his share of loss and death.

by Starlord » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:47 pm

by Daringd » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:43 pm

by superfictious » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:53 pm

Punchy wrote:
It's not a fear of change, it's a fear of change that doesn't make sense.

And Peter Parker and Matt Murdock are very different people, it's like how both Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne's parents were murdered, but one of them is still able to laugh and have fun, while the other becomes Batman.

by Eli Katz » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:55 pm

by Tintin Quarantino » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:05 pm

False Prophet wrote:
DD used to be the one who laughed and had fun, while Spiderman was ultimately the dour and pessimistic, even when he was cracking wise.

by Amoebas » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:12 pm

chap22 wrote:well, i disagree with your charcterization of it as a "fan war", personally, because i don't fit into either of the 2 camps you ascribe to the war. i myself worship at the altar of Miller's DD. it is by miles and miles the best work on the character ever, and one of IMMO the top 10 superhero comic runs of all time (when looked at all together: the initial run, BA, and MWOF). i love DD in dark stories, mixing himself with gritty, noir elements like Turk, Josie's Bar, gang wars, etc. yet i also like my DD more swashbuckley, b/c that's who Matt is as a person.

b/c here's the thing that the recent decade or so's worth of writers (Bendis, Bru, Diggle) have forgotten: even Frank knew when enough was enough. yeah, he beat on DD and beat on him and beat on him, but in the end Matt overcame and found himself. he was "born again" as himself. Nocenti pulled a similar trick, laying defeat and disgrace and shame and bad decisions on him for 50-60 issues until Matt, because he is the HERO of the story, fought his way back up out of literal Hell to find himself again. and that waas just nowhere to be found in Bendis, et al's runs.

and yes, i'll buy the fact that events change a man. but here's where i think your true divide lies: most of us realize this is a serial medium. and most of us realize that in such a serial medium, while stories matter, characters matter more. and there's only so far and so much you can change a character until he's no longer recognizable to the fans that follow him. and once you do that, not every writer is going to be able to write stories of a high enough quality to keep those readers who read the book for Matt Murdock as opposed to those who read for BMB, or for Bru, or for "let's see how much shit Writer X can pile on DD this arc"

by Amoebas » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:14 pm

Asmodeus Jones wrote:Still believe deep at the heart of this debate is readers' constant fear of change. Even those who advocate for it in comics grieve mightily when it comes for something they happened to be liking just fine.

Also, no one has a problem with Peter Parker's persona when he quips his way through his darkest hours, and that character has also had his share of loss and death.

by Tintin Quarantino » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:22 pm

by Chris » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:29 pm

by Tintin Quarantino » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:33 pm