The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[chap22]

Again, to YOU they are as good as or better than Spider-man. But Spidey sells what, twice as many copies? And there's no gaurantee that if you push Spidey out, people will buy Runaways instead. They could just as likely go buy lunch instead...

twice? more like 5 or 6 times as many! per issue, never even mind the two issues per month thing.

and you don't want to use sales as an indicator? fine. Spidey has been in consistent publication for 50 years, going through countless successful writers, and fans everywhere will tell you that their favorite writer of Spidey is a different guy. is Lee's run the best? what about Conway? DeMatteis? JMS? Claremont on Marvel Team-Up? Jenkins? etc etc...

OTOH, you let anybody other than BKV write the Runaways and fans themselves run away from those characters en masse. and there weren't that many people buying the book in the first place! that should tell you all you need to know about the strength of the characters/concepts in comparison to each other.

[misac]

No, that's what What Ifs and Elseworlds are for.

[Lord Simian]

twice? more like 5 or 6 times as many! per issue, never even mind the two issues per month thing.

and you don't want to use sales as an indicator? fine. Spidey has been in consistent publication for 50 years, going through countless successful writers, and fans everywhere will tell you that their favorite writer of Spidey is a different guy. is Lee's run the best? what about Conway? DeMatteis? JMS? Claremont on Marvel Team-Up? Jenkins? etc etc...

OTOH, you let anybody other than BKV write the Runaways and fans themselves run away from those characters en masse. and there weren't that many people buying the book in the first place! that should tell you all you need to know about the strength of the characters/concepts in comparison to each other.

Yeah, I was being conservative on the sales. I'm not even looking at strength of concept or content. I am just saying, sales bear out the marketplace. People swear comics should focus on Indies, non-superhero, new concepts, etc. But what sells? Spider-Man, Batman, Wolverine, etc. So yeah, the companies make those books, because those are what sells.

And to say "well, those things I want would sell Spidey numbers, if only Spidey wasn't in the way" is akin to saying "I want McDonald's to sell chicken tacos. They could sell a billion, if they'd get rid of those burgers... Stupid glass bun, keeping the taco down!"

Well, the consumers want those burgers, so that's what they'll keep on the menu.

[McKegan]

Personally, I wouldn't mind characters aging but it's a non-starter for the big-2. The reason we got a bunch of new characters and concepts with Lee and Kirby was because they didn't know better and were essentially giving those ideas away for free. Most modern creators working for Marvel or DC aren't going to do that because there's little profit in it.

John Constantine has been aging in real-time in Hellblazer and he seems so old now, and it's super creepy that he's married to a 20 year old.

[Lord Simian]

Personally, I wouldn't mind characters aging but it's a non-starter for the big-2. The reason we got a bunch of new characters and concepts with Lee and Kirby was because they didn't know better and were essentially giving those ideas away for free. Most modern creators working for Marvel or DC aren't going to do that because there's little profit in it.

John Constantine has been aging in real-time in Hellblazer and he seems so old now, and it's super creepy that he's married to a 20 year old.

Crap, I have been out of the loop! Constantine is married?

[Chesscub]

I'm glad to see Marvel is making movies of their real good characters like Rocket Racer and Triathlon.

[Spidey-Man]

No.

Marvel and DC can’t create new characters for shit

And having your 40th Spider-Man would be just plain silly and derivative.

There’s a lot of things they need to do. But this isn’t one of them

It would actually destroy the industry and if carried over to the cartoons and movies, destroy them too.

[Spidey-Man]

How many comics did old Hal Jordan sell?

No to aging.

More than most characters today.

[Spidey-Man]

I disagree. Time was still passing in the sixties, and in the seventies. It slowed down and kept becoming more inconsequential as time went on, and probably stopped completely sometime around 1990, as the late nineties and early 2000s was when we started seeing asinine shit like the X-Men first class using laptops and ipods in flashbacks.

So, if the consequence of time declined from the sixties to the nineties, and sales also declined from the sixties to the nineties, I could easily make the case that the two are correlated... if you know the meaning of correlation.

In any case, I suspect your opposition to aging characters has more to do with your innate Greek pedocurious sensibilities than any kind of business interest.

Actually, you're wrong. For two reasons

(1) Time passed on a year to year basis more or less in real time for the first few yrs. Pete graduates high school on time. then it was verrry slow. He stays in college for yearrrrrs. and then by the mid to late 70s it had basically stopped. FF #1 was 7 yrs ago. By the late 80s it was 10, and in the 90s or so 13 for some breathing room, but for the most part there was not much of a change in age for the characters once Johnny and Pete got post college age.

(2) That's not what happened to sales. Sales increased from 1961 through 1968, uniformly at Marvel. Everyone else was rapidly going down hill. 1968 marvel expands and all split books get their own titles. From 68 to 72 they held steady or slowed, leading to cancellations -submariner, nick fury, etc. But they passed DC in sales in 1972 ish. Stan steps down. Goodman steps down. Mission Accomplished.


From 72 to the late 70s, sales do a nosedive as the newstand is decimated.

In the 80s sales rebound with the direct market. From 86 to 96 sales explode

The speculator bubble bursts and sales decrease from 96 to 2000 or so as Marvel enters bankruptcy.

Sales then increase under Q for a time, hitting the peak during the Civil War era.

Then post civil war, sales decrease again, like a balloon was punctured.

[GOSD]

No, Mr. Annoying.

[skywatcher]

No, Mr. Annoying.

Actually, I'm surprised by how many voted "yes". (But it's pertinent to point out that the poll question actually asks if the characters should "significantly grow" rather than the "start ageing" of the thread title)

[Spidey-Man]

One book but

Amazing hits it peak 60s sales in 1967

373,000

By 1973

It is selling

273,000

1978

258,000

1981

240,683

1987

284,692

1990

334,000

1992 and 1993 it sells more than Stan Lee sold during height of speculation, the only time

592,442

1995

234,290

1998

119,547

2001

113,557


2004 - Amazing Spider-Man 160,579 ]
2005 - Amazing Spider-Man 150,833
2008 - Amazing Spider-Man 125,019
2009 - Amazing Spider-Man 94,006
2010 - Amazing Spider-Man 85,445

[skywatcher]

One book but

Amazing hits it peak 60s sales in 1967

373,000

But, Spider-Man is later launched in numerous spin-offs and companion titles. So, although the original series sales begin to decline after 1967, the number of Spider-Man comics sold each month increases substantially for many more years after that.
So, not a great example, but I can't argue that your figures show an all-time low for the past few years.

[Spidey-Man]

But, Spider-Man is later launched in numerous spin-offs and companion titles. So, although the original series sales begin to decline after 1967, the number of Spider-Man comics sold each month increases substantially for many more years after that.
So, not a great example, but I can't argue that your figures show an all-time low for the past few years.

My guess is those comics are being sold to the same people buying Amazing. If there was one Spidey title you read, generally, it was amazing.

So yes your selling more of Spider-Man but to the same people (generally).

[skywatcher]

So yes your selling more of Spider-Man but to the same people (generally).

But that was the whole idea of launching additional Spider titles. Marvel was well aware that it might lead to a drop off in sales for the original comic, but this was to be more than compensated for by the sales of the new comics. It really matters little that many of the readers of Spectacular Spider-Man, Marvel Team-Up etc would be also buying Amazing. Overall, comic sales would (and did) increase.