The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[dairydead]

More Wolverine apologists. Isn't he busy trying to kill a bunch of people whose lives he already made hell and are fully within their rights to want to off him over?

Like Punchy said, thats what makes him interesting. He's a tortured soul torn between his nature and his feelings. Thats why he's so popular to this day, because people can relate to someone who is confused at what he should be , and feels constantly used by others.

[Flynn the Pirate]

Like Punchy said, thats what makes him interesting. He's a tortured soul torn between his nature and his feelings. Thats why he's so popular to this day, because people can relate to someone who is confused at what he should be , and feels constantly used by others.

Okay, first off, I think people are taking my posts a bit too seriously, despite my use of smileys. That being said...

It is one thing for a former hitman or soldier or whatever to harp on the terribleness of putting any youngster into a situation where they might have to kill. That might even be understandable or commendable. But for someone who not only had a youngster put a tumor into another man's head in order to blackmail him into working with the team and then have that same youngster use his powers to kill one of his former members (admittedly in defense of others on his team) to make such comments is, to me, questionable.

My point is not that Cyclops is perfectly okay with doing what he did (though it should be noted that he did not actually tell Idie to kill anyone). It isn't. It is reprehensible, just as having X-Force was a reprehensible choice (though perhaps necessary). My point is that when Wolverine taking issue with it, he really has no moral high-ground to stand on.

[fieldy snuts]

FINALLY! I was really beginning to wonder when we would see what the source of Scott and Logan's split was going to be over. That's the good news. The bad news is that, if this is it, then I'm going to have more than a few qualms about it.

Over the past few years, we've seen Scott commission a kill-squad, which Wolverine has led, mind you, to take care of some of the nastier members of the X-Men's rogue's gallery. He's also sent a team, including his own son, off on a one-way suicide mission in an attempt to save lives.

Conversely, Wolverine has led the aforementioned kill-squad, which included two teenagers, one of which was his clone. Did he bitch and moan about it at first? Yeah, but then he got right to using them. Heck, he even had Elixir put a tumor in Vanisher's head to blackmail him into working for X-Force. And now he's leading a new version of the team WITHOUT the sanction of Cyclops because he just wants to.

While neither are saints on the issue of corrupting innocents and making the choice to kill others, I really don't see how Wolverine really gets any moral high-ground to stand on.

There's a difference between using a squad of killers to kill and having a 13 year old kid who grew up in a war torn country haunted by war and murder massacre an army.

Idie was always damaged from the violence around her throughout her childhood and Cyclops didn't give a shit and put her down a path that could turn her into another Wolverine. THAT is the line that was crossed which Wolverine got angry with.

While Wolverine has no qualms killing at the drop of the hat, he's always been disgusted when kids like X-23 are raised that way robbing them of their innocence.

[Flynn the Pirate]

There's a difference between using a squad of killers to kill and having a 13 year old kid who grew up in a war torn country haunted by war and murder massacre an army.

Idie was always damaged from the violence around her throughout her childhood and Cyclops didn't give a shit and put her down a path that could turn her into another Wolverine. THAT is the line that was crossed which Wolverine got angry with.

While Wolverine has no qualms killing at the drop of the hat, he's always been disgusted when kids like X-23 are raised that way robbing them of their innocence.

Except that Cyclops never said for her to kill anyone. He said, and I quote, "You do what you feel you have to." He did not tell her to kill a single person.

Did he give her the openess to do it? Technically yes, so I suppose you can argue from that point. Was he a heartless bastard about it afterward? Absolutely, and he should be called on the carpet about it. But did he send her in or expressly tell her at any point to kill a single person? No.

Compare this with a person who told Elixir to give another person cancer.

That's all I'm getting at.

[dairydead]

Okay, first off, I think people are taking my posts a bit too seriously, despite my use of smileys. That being said...

It is one thing for a former hitman or soldier or whatever to harp on the terribleness of putting any youngster into a situation where they might have to kill. That might even be understandable or commendable. But for someone who not only had a youngster put a tumor into another man's head in order to blackmail him into working with the team and then have that same youngster use his powers to kill one of his former members (admittedly in defense of others on his team) to make such comments is, to me, questionable.

My point is not that Cyclops is perfectly okay with doing what he did (though it should be noted that he did not actually tell Idie to kill anyone). It isn't. It is reprehensible, just as having X-Force was a reprehensible choice (though perhaps necessary). My point is that when Wolverine taking issue with it, he really has no moral high-ground to stand on.

I don't think he necessarily needs a moral high ground. he's always been a man of conviction, and even if his bloodlust gets the best of him, he knows when something is wrong. Like punchy said, not everyone is perfect, and Wolverine may be a hypocrite, but he knows bullshit when he sees it. Honestly , at this point, im glad Wolverine is calling out Scott, because the guy has been turning into a full-fledged villain for the last few years.

[Flynn the Pirate]

I don't think he necessarily needs a moral high ground. he's always been a man of conviction, and even if his bloodlust gets the best of him, he knows when something is wrong. Like punchy said, not everyone is perfect, and Wolverine may be a hypocrite, but he knows bullshit when he sees it. Honestly , at this point, im glad Wolverine is calling out Scott, because the guy has been turning into a full-fledged villain for the last few years.

If that's true, though, Wolverine has long since been an anti-villain of sorts, as Jason Aaron's current arc in the Wolverine ongoing is showing (and which Punchy and I agreed about).

[dairydead]

Except that Cyclops never said for her to kill anyone. He said, and I quote, "You do what you feel you have to." He did not tell her to kill a single person.

Did he give her the openess to do it? Technically yes, so I suppose you can argue from that point. Was he a heartless bastard about it afterward? Absolutely, and he should be called on the carpet about it. But did he send her in or expressly tell her at any point to kill a single person? No.

Compare this with a person who told Elixir to give another person cancer.

That's all I'm getting at.

granted, and now i never read this arc so i may not have the facts straight, Elixir did this with the knowledge that he could probably heal Vanisher, right? Plus he signed up for being on the X-force, a kill squad, he knew what his role was. On the other hand, Idie still had her innocence, unlike Elixir who had been through enough death to last a lifetime

[fieldy snuts]

Except that Cyclops never said for her to kill anyone. He said, and I quote, "You do what you feel you have to." He did not tell her to kill a single person.

Did he give her the openess to do it? Technically yes, so I suppose you can argue from that point. Was he a heartless bastard about it afterward? Absolutely, and he should be called on the carpet about it. But did he send her in or expressly tell her at any point to kill a single person? No.

Compare this with a person who told Elixir to give another person cancer.

That's all I'm getting at.

His openness was intentional to prod her to that direction while absolving himself by not using the specific words. Cyclops has always been dickish that way these days....it's stuff like that which makes him look like Magneto's perfect heir.

[Punchy]

Wow, it's almost as if this issue is complicated and designed so both sides could be considered right.

[Flynn the Pirate]

Wow, it's almost as if this issue is complicated and designed so both sides could be considered right.

Never let it be said that Jason Aaron is not a talented writer.

[fieldy snuts]

Wow, it's almost as if this issue is complicated and designed so both sides could be considered right.

Just like Civil War!

[Kerny]

This is the best 'event' being put out right now. Better than Fear Itself, Spider-Island, and Flashpoint.

I've always been a huge Wolverine fan, so I'm gonna take his side here. To me, Cyclops crossed a line.

[guitarsmashley]

This is the best 'event' being put out right now. Better than Fear Itself, Spider-Island, and Flashpoint.

I've always been a huge Wolverine fan, so I'm gonna take his side here. To me, Cyclops crossed a line.

This. It just needs to kick back into gear.

[doombug]

Just like Civil War!

Only this time, no one is inherently out of character to be used for story purposes.

[ThatGuyRoman]

Wow, it's almost as if this issue is complicated and designed so both sides could be considered right.

This.