The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

by **Victorian Squid** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:47 pm

Punchy wrote:That Batgirl cosplayer is the worst person in the world.

She sucks, and not in the way a Batgirl cosplayer should either.

by **RussBurlingame** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:55 pm

I really, truly despise that person. I didn't know that she had a column someplace now, but that alone is reason enough to avoid the site she's on. I'm further repulsed by the fact that she'd use her column to publicly talk about how before ruining countless panels for fans at Comic-Con this year, she downloaded comics illegally. Sounds like a true fan, and an asset to the industry.

by **BlueStreak** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:55 pm

Herald wrote:
Someone's got an archenemy...

Not really. I'll be blunt. I dislike illegal downloading of just about anything and think it's even bigger shit when a website who makes its dime off of covering the comic book industry openly promotes it and condones it when creators' paychecks are directly dependent on sales. I don't buy the "I need to read it before I buy it argument either" simply due to the fact that there are hundreds of comic book websites that will tell you just about anything you want to know about a series before it goes live.

You want to use your newfound celebrity from harassing Dan Didio at a convention, be my guest. You want to do that by promoting activity that led to the shelving of the character you dressed up as? That's a cue for me to disregard your opinion entirely.

It's okay, though, Rich Johnston's flying her out to NYCC so maybe she can tell that to some of her favorite creators that she illegally downloads their comics and see if the industry still backs her as much as they did at SDCC.

by **BlueStreak** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:57 pm

Sorry for sending this thread off-topic Russ. You'll find this happens a lot. :oops:

by **Victorian Squid** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:05 pm

I was going to read it to stoke my self-righteous indignation but I don't know how you can find anything on that site.

I notice they don't list The Outhouse in their list of comic book websites though.

by **flexmentallo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:23 pm

BlueStreak wrote:
Close, but someone even more heinous.

They brought on the SDCC Batgirl. Her first column is about how illegal comic downloading is good for the industry because it's what got her into reading comics. If anything, that makes me dislike illegal downloading that much more.

I'm not sure I understand how you got that from Kyrax's column. If you read the column, the point she makes is that free downloads have been a successful means of promotion in the book, television and music industries and it wouldn't be a bad idea for comics to look at adopting a system wherein publishers give away free downloads of their titles in order to take the control of downloads away from pirates, like the networks have done with Hulu or any number of musicians have done with Bandcamp. She does confess that she got into comics because of downloading and argues that there are more than likely lots of fans who got into them this way, but you're ridiculously oversimplifying her point and it seems like the reason you're doing so is because you disagree with the issues she brought up at SDCC.

by **BlueStreak** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:34 pm

flexmentallo wrote:
I'm not sure I understand how you got that from Kyrax's column. If you read the column, the point she makes is that free downloads have been a successful means of promotion in the book, television and music industries and it wouldn't be a bad idea for comics to look at adopting a system wherein publishers give away free downloads of their titles in order to take the control of downloads away from pirates, like the networks have done with Hulu or any number of musicians have done with Bandcamp. She does confess that she got into comics because of downloading and argues that there are more than likely lots of fans who got into them this way, but you're ridiculously oversimplifying her point and it seems like the reason you're doing so is because you disagree with the issues she brought up at SDCC.

I ridiculously oversimplify things a lot.

The issue with her proposal is two-fold. The first is that at least one of the big two does this. One free comic per day every single day. Shockingly, no one has ever heard of it.

The second is that despite Hulu's emergence, people are still downloading crazy amounts of TV shows. Hulu and DVR may have lessened the activity, but I can guarantee you that tons of people still download shows despite its availability because they want to view it on their TV or on their phone or on their terms instead of the television or movie companies. That's not going to change, even if DC and Marvel starts putting up their backcatalog.

The third is that while loss leaders work for established writers like Niel Gaiman who already have a fanbase and a steady income stream, it doesn't work for the little guys who actually need the paychecks that comics bring. Illegally downloading comics or condoning it because a person feels that it's not widely available only hurts those people in the long run. Does it hurt Geoff Johns? Nope. But would it hurt Nathan Edmonson or Cullen Bunn or the people just breaking into the industry. Most definitely. Those creators are friends of the site and it's a shame to see a person gleefully condone taking money from them and try to justify it as "Well, I should be able to read it for free anyways". AND no matter how she tries to justify it, it's still illegal and is still stealing.

So that's three points, not two. Oops. :smt102

by **Victorian Squid** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:37 pm

Yeah sure, we'd all like everyone to give everything away for free.

This is a much better article that actually looks at the costs of piracy to creators instead of using a couple anecdotal accounts from hugely best-selling authors like Coelho and Gaiman after they were already on the best-seller lists to try and say it should be applied to digital comics and all should be given away to the likes of the Kyraxs out there:

http://www.multiversitycomics.com/2010/ ... ating.html

by **flexmentallo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:48 pm

BlueStreak wrote:
I ridiculously oversimplify things a lot.

The issue with her proposal is two-fold. The first is that at least one of the big two does this. One free comic per day every single day. Shockingly, no one has ever heard of it.

The second is that despite Hulu's emergence, people are still downloading crazy amounts of TV shows. Hulu and DVR may have lessened the activity, but I can guarantee you that tons of people still download shows despite its availability because they want to view it on their TV or on their phone or on their terms instead of the television or movie companies. That's not going to change, even if DC and Marvel starts putting up their backcatalog.

The third is that while loss leaders work for established writers like Niel Gaiman who already have a fanbase and a steady income stream, it doesn't work for the little guys who actually need the paychecks that comics bring. Illegally downloading comics or condoning it because a person feels that it's not widely available only hurts those people in the long run. Does it hurt Geoff Johns? Nope. But would it hurt Nathan Edmonson or Cullen Bunn or the people just breaking into the industry. Most definitely. Those creators are friends of the site and it's a shame to see a person gleefully condone taking money from them and try to justify it as "Well, I should be able to read it for free anyways". AND no matter how she tries to justify it, it's still illegal and is still stealing.

So that's three points, not two. Oops.

As she points out in the column, the key isn't to make piracy go away, because that's an impossible task. The key is to make an alternative that users will want to go to instead of illegally downloading the product. Yes, Marvel has free streaming at Starbucks and yes they do occasional free downloads and from all accounts, both of those programs are helping bring in new readers, which is more evidence for the argument that free distribution models aren't a bad thing. Your point that they don't work for smaller creators is based on what, though? I've never seen any numbers to back this claim up, meanwhile both Dark Horse and Oni give out free issues very often, including for works by both of the indie creators you named, with Sixth Gun and The Light both having free issues available for readers, either in physical or digital form. Never mind the fact that Free Comic Book Day, an event that actually costs comic shops who have to buy the giveaway issues, has managed to be a tremendous success. It would seem that if the free giveaways are costing creators money, we'd be seeing less of these programs not more and I think the point that DC's relaunch would make an even bigger splash if they lured in new readers by giving the first issues out for free digitally is a valid one.

But besides all that, there's a pretty big difference in my mind between asking publishers to consider more free digital programs while confessing that you came to comics through illegal downloading and claiming that piracy itself is going to save the industry. You're reaching by turning her confession into a pass for all of piracy, especially since she specifically says one of the biggest advantages to the publishers creating free digital systems is that they'd help steer people away from piracy, even if they don't necessarily eradicate it altogether. If all she wanted was for piracy to get a pass, why even bother suggesting a system governed by the publishers?

by **flexmentallo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:55 pm

Mike Mercury wrote:Yeah sure, we'd all like everyone to give everything away for free.

This is a much better article that actually looks at the costs of piracy to creators instead of using a couple anecdotal accounts from hugely best-selling authors like Coelho and Gaiman after they were already on the best-seller lists to try and say it should be applied to digital comics and all should be given away to the likes of the Kyraxs out there:

Did you mean to link this or something different? Because this article also only uses anecdotal evidence and the author admits in it that he can only "imagine that part of [SWORD's commercial failure] is from online pirating." He also admits in the article that piracy does offer some good, including getting people turned on to books they might not have otherwise found. On the whole, the article actually raises many of the same points as what we're talking about already with more emphasis on requesting people buy physical copies of books they've downloaded.

EDIT: fixed typo

by **GLX** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:35 pm

BlueStreak wrote:
Close, but someone even more heinous.

They brought on the SDCC Batgirl. Her first column is about how illegal comic downloading is good for the industry because it's what got her into reading comics. If anything, that makes me dislike illegal downloading that much more.

Link?

EDIT: Found it.

http://www.comicsbulletin.com/wheel/131569416627034.htm

by **S.F. Jude Terror** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:37 pm

I didn't read the article (though I will, I love controversial figures :lol:

), but I do agree with some of what Flex is saying. Piracy is a part of the internet. It's been a part of it since before most people knew what the internet was, when you had to go on IRC and download from text bots, or dial into a bbs and download warez at 1200 BPS. It will be a part of it forever, or at least until the one world government forcibly implants microchips into our brains that shock our pain center when we think impure thoughts.

However, companies can combat piracy by making their content available the way people want it. It took the music industry a long time, but they eventually understood this and started offering songs DRM free on iTunes. People want to listen to music, or watch videos, or read books or comics on their devices without restriction. They don't want a license to read something or watch something on one device only. That shit will make people steal out of spite.

Amazon has a good model with the kindle. They have some form of DRM protection, but they have a kindle app on as many platforms as possible, and they let you download a physical copy of their books to all these devices.

The comics industry could learn from this. The video industry could definitely learn from this. The current distribution system of cable TV sucks fucking balls.

DC at least has taken steps in the right direction with their initiative to launch all their comics day and date digital. So at least they understand that they need to do SOMETHING to accommodate the digital market.

Here's the thing that I think these companies mishandle. They're so afraid of piracy, or misunderstand it so badly, that they think that putting a shitload of restrictions on their product will prevent people from pirating it. Pirates will break drm, they will scan comics, they will pirate them by any means necessary. So all DRM does is make the product inferior to the pirated one.

If companies of any kind want to compete with piracy, it needs to be DRM free, or at least mostly DRM free. I'll pay 10 bucks for a kindle book because I know it's high quality and I can get it on every device I need it on. Companies need to find that happy medium.

by **S.F. Jude Terror** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:43 pm

My post was all over the place. Comics have a loyal fanbase. These aren't like music fans that might buy a band's album every year or two and go see a show when they tour. Comic fans spend 4 bucks a pop each and every month on multiple products, a much higher ratio Iof consumption to available product than any other industry. How many people buy every album put out by the music industry? How many watch every TV show? There are at least a few people at every LCS who simply have a standing pull for every item on the shelves.

These people will continue to support the industry and pay for their books. Stop being pussies about it and make the books available as restriction-free as possible. Comixology isn't too bad. But it could be much better.

by **doombug** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:45 pm

BlueStreak wrote:
Not really. I'll be blunt. I dislike illegal downloading of just about anything and think it's even bigger shit when a website who makes its dime off of covering the comic book industry openly promotes it and condones it when creators' paychecks are directly dependent on sales. I don't buy the "I need to read it before I buy it argument either" simply due to the fact that there are hundreds of comic book websites that will tell you just about anything you want to know about a series before it goes live.

You want to use your newfound celebrity from harassing Dan Didio at a convention, be my guest. You want to do that by promoting activity that led to the shelving of the character you dressed up as? That's a cue for me to disregard your opinion entirely.

It's okay, though, Rich Johnston's flying her out to NYCC so maybe she can tell that to some of her favorite creators that she illegally downloads their comics and see if the industry still backs her as much as they did at SDCC.

Now I'm going to have to make sure Russ doesn't kill this girl at NYCC, did you have to bring up she'd be there?!

(Though if she brings the costume and I see her, my Deadpool will annoy the hell out of her)