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Frag

REAL OFFICIAL President of the Outhouse

Postby Frag » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:10 am

Greg wrote:
Maybe the writer just wanted to write them and liked the history T'Challa had with both? It makes sense for Luke to be there given his guest appearances in the run. Falcon is a bit of a wild card and is good with espionage and is already a trusted ally to T'Challa. He called in two of his friends who he trusts, I see no reason why this is getting a suspicious eye. Given that T'Challa and Kingpin are also turning this into a chess type match, T'Challa knows both characters well enough that he trust in their skills and know it's their skills that will work for their specific plan? :?


We'll see if that's these case. Again, I will take it back if there's a point. Remind me next month if you want and I'll start a new thread. I've just seen this too many times that I'm a bit cynical.
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Rockman

Rain Partier

Postby Rockman » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:53 am

it's racist to have friends of the same race now?
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Greg

Rain Partier

Postby Greg » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:56 am

Rockman wrote:it's racist to have friends of the same race now?


If you ain't white, it's forced.
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SilverPhoenix

Staff Writer

Postby SilverPhoenix » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:58 am

The President wrote:
My point is that instead of integrated BP into the MU, they try this dumb stunt of getting all the black characters together for no reason.

It's like if GL Jon Stewart teamed up with Cyborg and Black Lightning instead of calling the GLC. Or that terrible story (I don't remember what comic it was in) where all the MU women teamed up - including Sue Storm, because the rest of the FF wouldn't have been a big help right?


Personally, I think you're missing something very important here and it's the fact that Panther does have relationships with these two characters.

In Cage's case, the two of them have been buddies for quite a while, with their relationship being apart of a few of Priest's stories and that was used in Hudlin's book, as well. Also, one of the subplots of the current meta-story is the fact that Cage calls out Panther on how his quest to prove himself has him shun everyone around him. Once you read the full run, you'll understand why calling Cage makes sense.

As for Falcon, T'Challa gave Falcon his Vibranium wings (and ironically, he's one of the only people who was truly affected by that crap Doomwar ending, but I shouldn't be shocked) and they both have a relationship fostered on mutual respect. If one needed the other's help, the one called upon would probably drop what they're doing to help the other.

With that being said, you could make the argument that Daredevil would've been better for this than Falcon, but T'Challa's honor system (and yes, I'd also agree that his honor system is a significant fault of his). wouldn't allow him to call Daredevil for help after said character trusted him to look after Hell's Kitchen. So there's at least a plausible story reason for leaving him out, unlike Bendis' treatment of T'Challa in Avengers #19.

I know you may be wary of this, but I honestly think this is one of the best thought out team-ups in Marvel in a long ass time, much better than Hawkeye leading Secret Avengers, at least.
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Punchy

Staff Writer

Postby Punchy » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:59 am

The Lady Liberators is a concept from Roy Thomas' time on the Avengers, Loeb didn't create them.
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sdsichero

2k11 Outhouse People's Champion

Postby sdsichero » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:45 am

The President wrote:
No you don't see where this is going. Don't jump to conclusions. I'm not GOSD or Thunderstorm so don't put that shit on me.

The fact is that they were put together for that reason. It's the same reason they married BP and Storm as well.


Someone's a bit touchy.

I'm suspicious.
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Frag

REAL OFFICIAL President of the Outhouse

Postby Frag » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:07 am

SilverPhoenix wrote:
Personally, I think you're missing something very important here and it's the fact that Panther does have relationships with these two characters.

In Cage's case, the two of them have been buddies for quite a while, with their relationship being apart of a few of Priest's stories and that was used in Hudlin's book, as well. Also, one of the subplots of the current meta-story is the fact that Cage calls out Panther on how his quest to prove himself has him shun everyone around him. Once you read the full run, you'll understand why calling Cage makes sense.

As for Falcon, T'Challa gave Falcon his Vibranium wings (and ironically, he's one of the only people who was truly affected by that crap Doomwar ending, but I shouldn't be shocked) and they both have a relationship fostered on mutual respect. If one needed the other's help, the one called upon would probably drop what they're doing to help the other.

With that being said, you could make the argument that Daredevil would've been better for this than Falcon, but T'Challa's honor system (and yes, I'd also agree that his honor system is a significant fault of his). wouldn't allow him to call Daredevil for help after said character trusted him to look after Hell's Kitchen. So there's at least a plausible story reason for leaving him out, unlike Bendis' treatment of T'Challa in Avengers #19.

I know you may be wary of this, but I honestly think this is one of the best thought out team-ups in Marvel in a long ass time, much better than Hawkeye leading Secret Avengers, at least.


Thanks for the post. What you're saying makes sense and I don't want to turn this into another racial thread. It's not like we don't have enough of those around here.

I've just been in enough of these type of meetings where people recommend doing stuff like this and I know BP has a ton more friends he could call on as well. What you say about Cage is true, but the Falcon connection sounds tenuous IMO. And Cage not bringing in Iron Fist or Wolverine or his wife is odd. Again, if it makes sense, I'll take it back.
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Frag

REAL OFFICIAL President of the Outhouse

Postby Frag » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:10 am

Punchy wrote:The Lady Liberators is a concept from Roy Thomas' time on the Avengers, Loeb didn't create them.


Yeah but in Thomas' run they were mind-controlled by the Enchantress.

This was She-Hulk calling up her friends to fight the Red Hulk! It made no sense other than to have Frank Cho draw women. That was the only reason for that.

It goes back to what a Marvel Editor once told me about Loeb. He'll ask a writer "what do you want to draw?" The artist may say "Iron Man fighting a dinosaur," so Loeb will add that to the story.
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chap22

Rain Partier

Postby chap22 » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:21 am

The President wrote:

I've just been in enough of these type of meetings where people recommend doing stuff like this and I know BP has a ton more friends he could call on as well. What you say about Cage is true, but the Falcon connection sounds tenuous IMO. And Cage not bringing in Iron Fist or Wolverine or his wife is odd. Again, if it makes sense, I'll take it back.

actually, Cage bringing in Wolverine would be exactly what you're decrying here...forced as all holy shit. Wolvy has zero connection to BP beyond his already-forced inclusion in the Avengers, and the fact that he used to be teammates with T'Challa's wife in 1 of the 42 other teams he slums it with in his spare time.

i agree that Fist would make a ton of sense, but then you chalk this up to: maybe Fist is busy with other stuff. mabybe BP isn't looking to recruit an army and wants to keep this to a group of 3...he's planning something, this isn't about planning a full-on frontal assault, it's about tricking Kingpin into making a mistake and then springing the trap, and keeping whatever assistance he's getting to a small number of street level guys may be most conducive to that. or any number of other reasons. frankly, i get your point, but i just disagree here. i don't feel like this is forced in any way yet, and i'm more than willing to give Liss a chance to prove that through the rest of the story as well.
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Frag

REAL OFFICIAL President of the Outhouse

Postby Frag » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:24 am

chap22 wrote:actually, Cage bringing in Wolverine would be exactly what you're decrying here...forced as all holy shit. Wolvy has zero connection to BP beyond his already-forced inclusion in the Avengers, and the fact that he used to be teammates with T'Challa's wife in 1 of the 42 other teams he slums it with in his spare time.

i agree that Fist would make a ton of sense, but then you chalk this up to: maybe Fist is busy with other stuff. mabybe BP isn't looking to recruit an army and wants to keep this to a group of 3...he's planning something, this isn't about planning a full-on frontal assault, it's about tricking Kingpin into making a mistake and then springing the trap, and keeping whatever assistance he's getting to a small number of street level guys may be most conducive to that. or any number of other reasons. frankly, i get your point, but i just disagree here. i don't feel like this is forced in any way yet, and i'm more than willing to give Liss a chance to prove that through the rest of the story as well.


Wolverine would make a ton of sense due to his relationship with the Hand. Trust me, I can live without Wolverine in another series. :-D
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chap22

Rain Partier

Postby chap22 » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:28 am

The President wrote:
Wolverine would make a ton of sense due to his relationship with the Hand. Trust me, I can live without Wolverine in another series. :-D

i feel that gets overstated a lot. whenever i hear "the Hand" i NEVER think about Wolverine, even in passing. those are DD/Elektra villains.
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Frag

REAL OFFICIAL President of the Outhouse

Postby Frag » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:31 am

chap22 wrote:i feel that gets overstated a lot. whenever i hear "the Hand" i NEVER think about Wolverine, even in passing. those are DD/Elektra villains.


I agree, but it's been force-fed to us enough that they are practically his arch-enemy now.
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BlueStreak

The Red Stands for Irony

Postby BlueStreak » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:33 am

The President wrote:
I agree, but it's been force-fed to us enough that they are practically his arch-enemy now.


How many Wolverine Hand stories have their been? I can only think of two.
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Frag

REAL OFFICIAL President of the Outhouse

Postby Frag » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:36 am

BlueStreak wrote:
How many Wolverine Hand stories have their been? I can only think of two.


He's not just an enemy, he's a member too!
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BlueStreak

The Red Stands for Irony

Postby BlueStreak » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:55 am

The President wrote:
He's not just an enemy, he's a member too!


Didn't all that take place in the same story, though?

Unless Wolverine keeps his Hand membership card handy to prove how edgy he is to the Avengers or something...

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