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[Doozer]

Civil War manage to,in my eyes at least,commit character assassination to at least half of the marvel Universe.

I knew it was bullshit the moment Spider-Man didn't bolt after Goliath's death, and knew it was extra bullshit when Punisher let Cap give him a beating.

Two of Marvel's most (self) morally incorruptible characters acting like confused and misguided teens.

[Miracloman]

And speaking of Civil War,of all cases of mis-characterizations on that particular story,one of the most egregious had to be Ben Grimm running away to France.as angry as he may had being at both sides the Benjamin Grimm I had read about for years would not had left leaving Johny storm comatose in an hospital bed,Reed going deeper and deeper into a mistaken stance not to mention the marriage of Reed and Sue about to collapse.He would have stayed and talk or if needed,beat some sense into them.He may not have cared for any of both sides of the Civil War conflict,but no way he would have deserted his friends on a moment like that.

[Doozer]

Yes, the fact that Peter and Ben didn't start knocking heads in an effort to make them see reason the moment someone was killed in the whole thing was terrible.

I mean that's kind of their thing, being the moral center to the MU, Ben a little more so than Peter, but Peter being a better "reluctant leader" than Ben. They're both the type that would have stood up and declared "This stops now."

[Zechs]

I'm still surprised Reed Richards got nothing coming to him in Civil War. Pym got the Skrull excuse and Tony well he got his mind wiped and had to have a lot of reunion hate sex with Steve to finally bury that bottle. But Richards? Nothing. Dude helped build a Thor clone and a prison in the Negative Zone. Does he perish or get anything bad happen to him? No he gets a lecture from a future faux Doom. That's it.

Weaksauce.

Phil Urich I see that as an evolution of the character (no matter my distaste for the end result). Anyone taking a dip in Green Goblin serum is gonna go insane. Except Kingsley. He was the sane Goblin of the bunch. He STILL is...

And yeah.... there's only one true answer to this thread. It makes everyone else in this thread look weak in comparison. Yes.. I'm talking about Captain Marvel. Both of companies version of them.

Seriously WTF Marvel and DC? For Marvel you had a grand exit for him. Then what do you do? You bring him back out of nowhere in Civil War. THEN you reveal he's not the original but a Skrull. Not only is he a Skrull spy but.. well okay I have no idea wtf happened during Secret Invasion other than it was the worst reveal and the worst WTF happen to this Skrull? I mean seriously he just disappeared after Norman talked him down.

...................

But wait they then decide to bring him back again. This time he's an alternate universe (Cancer verse) genocidal madman who wishes to do away with death.Okay this one isn't so bad but still... you kill him off. BOO!! He had villainous potential. So I guess three times the charm with this one no?


Then there's Captain Marvel and DC. Yeah this is ten times worse than what Marvel did with their character. I mean here you have just a character who's world is just so ripe and interesting. So what you do? Why you just make Super Kami Wizard Shazam be a real dick. Seriously.. why must men in long robes be huge dicks? The Guardians are dicks. Shazam is a dick. Merlin is a dick. Is there any old dude who wears a long robe not a dick?

Anyway.. to even utter the name Mary Marvel is to bring about hundreds of unpleasant images all thanks to what DC put her through the shitter in Countdown, Final Crisis, and JSA. Way to go DC for trying to be horrible to an innocent virginal character. Then there's Freddie.. who pretty much did nothing as Captain Marvel. Prometheus did more as a fake Captain Marvel then Freddie did. PROMETHEUS THE SUPER VILLAIN!!!

Speaking of the Big Red Cheese's Super Villains: Mr. Mind and Black Adam. When your villains are getting better told stories than the actual hero who's gallery they're apart of you know something is wrong.

And now DC is going to just piss and take a dump on the legacy even further with whatever is going to happen in that side story in JLA. I mean really that's all they're going to do. When was the last IN CONTINUITY good Captain Marvel story DC produced during this regime? EXACTLY.. this is all but DOOMED. DOOMED I SAY!! DOOMED!!

[Zechs]

Where the fuck did that rant come from?

[Benderbrau]

Wolverine was the loner on the edge. Now he's a gruff but loveable father figure with the occasionally bad temper.

[Zechs]

Wolverine was the loner on the edge. Now he's a gruff but loveable father figure with the occasionally bad temper.

Having to deal with kids will do that to you.

Or cold bloodingly murdering all of them.

Or your former friend becoming the new Magneto forcing you to be the goodie two shoe.

[Miracloman]

Where the fuck did that rant come from?

Alcohol?

[CountD]

Read Spiderman vs Wolverine for how each of these characters s/b written. Spot on.

[draco x]

Cyclops is finally interesting

The Joseph thing made perfect sense in the context of the book. Joseph was "always" the mirror image of Magneto and when Astra brought him back it was to punish Magneto

Yeah, but the one thing Joseph had going for him at the time that he was originally a redeemed Magneto who wanted to atone for his past-until they turned him into another Ben Reilly by revealing he was just a clone. Bringing him back just to turn him into another douchebag villain wasn't original in my opinion. If I were to bring him back why not have him stay as the good Magneto who would be in conflict with the original Magneto nonetheless. In fact, they could have had Joseph join X-Force or X-Factor to make good use of him. If they had at least had Joseph come to his senses and remembered that he redeemed himself in the mini then that would have been more interesting. To me Joseph is another Phil Urich at this point.

[chap22]

And speaking of Civil War,of all cases of mis-characterizations on that particular story,one of the most egregious had to be Ben Grimm running away to France.as angry as he may had being at both sides the Benjamin Grimm I had read about for years would not had left leaving Johny storm comatose in an hospital bed,Reed going deeper and deeper into a mistaken stance not to mention the marriage of Reed and Sue about to collapse.He would have stayed and talk or if needed,beat some sense into them.He may not have cared for any of both sides of the Civil War conflict,but no way he would have deserted his friends on a moment like that.

amen, brother. in a shitty mini-series filled to the brim with character assasination, Ben was the on who got handled the worst IMO. leaving for France? no. just...no.

[Doc Jon]

Wolverine was the loner on the edge. Now he's a gruff but loveable father figure with the occasionally bad temper.

Eh, I don't know about that. Ever since Wolvie's bond with Kitty, he's been portrayed in that fashion. Unless you're implying that the character assassination was all the way back to Claremont and Miller.

[draco x]

Cyclops is the best he's been in decades, thanks largely to Whedon carrying on Morrison's turn with the character, and going beyond that and having him finally break his psychological dependency on Jean and hangups about being a decisive leader.

He's been a weak character since he ran out on his wife and kid way back when, and he's finally been redeemed.

Don't even get me started on Cyclops being portrayed as a deadbeat figure with Madelyne Prior and Nathan as that was also an example of bad writing. Him being potrayed as a much grimmer figure is not the problem but I object to him being portrayed as another Magneto analogue with how manipulative and arrogant he now is. Also, the part where he cheated on Jean with Emma mentally was also crap writing.

[draco x]

Kingsley's fight with Phil Ulrich.

I am still holding on to my belief that that really wasn't Kingsley and just some dupe he sent in his place that got decapitated. Plus, it was pointed out how odd that Urich would just become the new Hobgoblin instead of going back to being the Green Goblin so there is most likely more to that scenario than is being shown.

[draco x]

I think Johns's retcon of Parallax is one of the shittiest in modern comics.

I grew up reading Hal as the main GL, and I never really did start liking Kyle. So, I'm not a Kyle fanboy, or a guy who hated Hal. But I'll tell you what. Hal's descent into evil was one of the most emotionally genuine moments in comics. Not the part where he flips out and murders the rest of the Corps; the part where he sees the destruction of Coast City combined with the Guardians' refusal to do shit about it; the part where, after all these years of being the tip of the spear, and living for the protection of others, Hal snaps. All that fuckin' anguish...in a world composed of four colors, that was real pain and frustration and anger.

Additionally, it was an object lesson to younger heroes who came up after the old guard heroes: no matter how pure and good you are, this is a power that can always corrupt you. No matter how experienced or how great your control is, there will always be those moments when you crack.

And for all those years he was "dead", it meant something to the other characters. They weren't sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for him to come back to life. When they spoke of him, you got the sense they were speaking in hushed tones. Like they were thinking, "there but for the grace of God..." You got the sense that every time they thought about him, they reminded themselves what happened and how he feel. And it caused them to stand perhaps a little straighter.

It changed heroes who haven't changed in decades (except for when they goddamn get retconed or rebooted).

Let Hal die. Let him redeem himself in death, perhaps. But don't...DON'T explain it all away as a yellow space bug. All that shit he went through, it's not genuine anymore. He's not subject to human flaws and faults, because it was a space bug just waiting for a vulnerable moment.

I have to disagree with you there, bro. It's not even the fact that they turned Hal evil that's my main bone of contention is just how they went about it. First off, there was no real build up to Hal going psycho after the Coast City genocide, it was just boom-Hal-is-now-a-villain-so-let's-replace-him-with-someone-new moment. The main reason for this decision was because DC was trying to get rid of Hal for years but couldn't find a proper way to do it. Originally, I heard there were plans to make Hal a Guardian and then bring in Kyle to replace him, however Kevin Dooley( Who has obviously high on some illegal substance) decided to give us this hack story as an obvious screw-you to Hal's character. Overall, this was more of a vendetta against Hals Jordan himself rather than a need to replace him. If they were going to replace Hal, have him go out in a blaze of glory like Barry Allen did before Wally took over-that I wouldn't have had a problem with.
Plus, how do you think the fans would have reacted if Kevin Dooley had tried this with Superman or Batman? Can you imagine if they turned Bruce Wayne into a serial killer before replacing him Jean Paul Valley or if they made Clark Kent into rapist before those 4 Supermen showed up? Kevin Dooley would have been instantly fired for even bringing that past the editorial board.