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[draco x]

Kurt Busiek, i believe. and i liked it, myself.

Fair enough but as I said, I hate retcons. The only two I have ever defended was the Hal Jordan as Parallax thing and overturning Ned Leeds as the Hobgoblin clusterfuck that helped to ruin one of my favorite Marvel villains.

[chap22]

Fair enough but as I said, I hate retcons. The only two I have ever defended was the Hal Jordan as Parallax thing and overturning Ned Leeds as the Hobgoblin clusterfuck that helped to ruin one of my favorite Marvel villains.

Funny how personal preferences can skew things then, b/c really, objectively, there is no way anyone can possibly defend the Parallax retcon and not defend the Phoenix retcon. They are as close to identical as two stories can get without being plagiarism. The only way to realistically differentiate them is by which character you liked more pre-darkening

[chap22]

Let me restate my question: How long does anyone realistically think it will last before they pull it for whatever reason?

I think it can go quite a while...as long as Bru wants it to for sure. He's one of tbd bigger names in comics now, Guice is a solid artist with a long track record, Bucky built up a fan base through Bru's Cap run, and the actual story in the book is a lot of fun. I haven't checked sales figures but I assume they're respectable. It could go at least a few years

[draco x]

Funny how personal preferences can skew things then, b/c really, objectively, there is no way anyone can possibly defend the Parallax retcon and not defend the Phoenix retcon. They are as close to identical as two stories can get without being plagiarism. The only way to realistically differentiate them is by which character you liked more pre-darkening

The thing with the Phoenix is that it was a more established storyline for decades despite the clusterfuck that is going on now with it and at least Jean was an obvious victim of the entity as she was never portrayed as being in full control of her actions. Hal, however, at the time was meant to be turned into some moustache-twirling douchebag villain out of the blue which made no sense where I stood-which is why I defended Geoff John's retcon to have it revealed that Parallax was a separate entity. That's where I stand personally.

[draco x]

I think it can go quite a while...as long as Bru wants it to for sure. He's one of tbd bigger names in comics now, Guice is a solid artist with a long track record, Bucky built up a fan base through Bru's Cap run, and the actual story in the book is a lot of fun. I haven't checked sales figures but I assume they're respectable. It could go at least a few years

As long as Bendis doesn't write it. LOL.

[Zechs]

Look.. Magneto has had a ton of bad character assassination. That all stems from X-Men Editorial (Bob Harras) and nothing more. He should have remained dead after X-Men #3. That was the perfect end for the character. But no they had to bring him back for the anniversary since they used up every other major X-Men villain at that time. Then what they do? They freaking mind wipe him. They bring him back only to send him back packing. WTF?!

But then we get the Joseph problem. When Lobdell pretty much was building to him regaining his memories. Then SURPRISE Joseph is a clone. Again.. the move reeked of Editorial (Bob Harras). Is it not surprising that Editorial is the reason the X-Books became fucked until Morrison and Whedon came around? You had to tell the stories editorial wanted not the writer.

The thing that ruined Magneto as a character was his "return" in Magneto Wars. It was the perfect set up for the character but they fell back on several issues with him. They gave him back his Starscream aka Fabian Cortez. They made him gray by having him seem more just than the Genoshan people he was fighting. They reused the whole subplot with Rogue from Uncanny #273-274 AGAIN with the same ending of Mags killing the other villain in cold blood. Then just as things can be full circle with Mags well he has to die to pave the way for Morrison.

Then the instant Morrison is done with him, Marvel decides to wipe everything Morrison did with the character and start fresh. The next ten years or so is the return of "good" Magneto. You know what the sad thing is? We've seen more years of the superhero Magneto (almost over twenty counting post Uncanny #150 onward to X-Men #1) than the villain Magneto (Uncanny X-Men #1-150 and then X-Men #1-New X-Men #148) That's sad and shows Marvel doesn't know what to do with the character.

[draco x]

Look.. Magneto has had a ton of bad character assassination. That all stems from X-Men Editorial (Bob Harras) and nothing more. He should have remained dead after X-Men #3. That was the perfect end for the character. But no they had to bring him back for the anniversary since they used up every other major X-Men villain at that time. Then what they do? They freaking mind wipe him. They bring him back only to send him back packing. WTF?!

But then we get the Joseph problem. When Lobdell pretty much was building to him regaining his memories. Then SURPRISE Joseph is a clone. Again.. the move reeked of Editorial (Bob Harras). Is it not surprising that Editorial is the reason the X-Books became fucked until Morrison and Whedon came around? You had to tell the stories editorial wanted not the writer.

The thing that ruined Magneto as a character was his "return" in Magneto Wars. It was the perfect set up for the character but they fell back on several issues with him. They gave him back his Starscream aka Fabian Cortez. They made him gray by having him seem more just than the Genoshan people he was fighting. They reused the whole subplot with Rogue from Uncanny #273-274 AGAIN with the same ending of Mags killing the other villain in cold blood. Then just as things can be full circle with Mags well he has to die to pave the way for Morrison.

Then the instant Morrison is done with him, Marvel decides to wipe everything Morrison did with the character and start fresh. The next ten years or so is the return of "good" Magneto. You know what the sad thing is? We've seen more years of the superhero Magneto (almost over twenty counting post Uncanny #150 onward to X-Men #1) than the villain Magneto (Uncanny X-Men #1-150 and then X-Men #1-New X-Men #148) That's sad and shows Marvel doesn't know what to do with the character.

Agreed. However, knowing Quesada and co. Magneto will be evil again down the road. I think Mags is one of those characters that should make very few appearances much like Doomsday over at DC and used for rare occassions. In fact, they should have Exodus fill his role now as the dark mutant saviour as he was his successor in a way. I totally agree with what you said about Cortez being Starscream as I was so glad that Mags finally killed that douchebag.

[chap22]

The thing with the Phoenix is that it was a more established storyline for decades despite the clusterfuck that is going on now with it and at least Jean was an obvious victim of the entity as she was never portrayed as being in full control of her actions. Hal, however, at the time was meant to be turned into some moustache-twirling douchebag villain out of the blue which made no sense where I stood-which is why I defended Geoff John's retcon to have it revealed that Parallax was a separate entity. That's where I stand personally.

Phoenix was established for 1 decade when the jean retcon came around. same with Hal as Parallax. and i don't think he was meant to be turned into a douchebag moustache-twirling villain, that's again just your personal bias. he was meant to be a cautionary tale of a mega-powerful hero snapping under the strain, in and of itself not a terrible idea, but one that admittedly was handled badly (in case i'm coming off anti-Hal here, i'm not...i MUCH prefer Hal to Kyle or any of the other Earth Lanterns, and i was pissed off too when they rushed right into turning him bad).

[draco x]

Phoenix was established for 1 decade when the jean retcon came around. same with Hal as Parallax. and i don't think he was meant to be turned into a douchebag moustache-twirling villain, that's again just your personal bias. he was meant to be a cautionary tale of a mega-powerful hero snapping under the strain, in and of itself not a terrible idea, but one that admittedly was handled badly (in case i'm coming off anti-Hal here, i'm not...i MUCH prefer Hal to Kyle or any of the other Earth Lanterns, and i was pissed off too when they rushed right into turning him bad).

Exactly what I was saying before. If the Hal thing had been handled better and hadn't felt rushed then I could stomach the about-turn they did on him. It just shows what happens when bad editorial policies mess up good characters and storylines from where I stand.

[Miracloman]

If I may add something to the Hal debate,one of the flaws about Hal/Parallax was IMO that DC almost seemed to had regretted the decision almost immediately.it wasn't very long before he attacked Kyle trying to regain the GL ring,then came the Final Night in which he died in a last act of redemption(note:I personally think that was a fitting and satisfactory end for Hal's history) but they could not let it well alone.He kept coming back as a ghost or via time travel and eventually became the new(and fairly bad) host for the Spectre.
Frankly,the presence of Hal after nearly a decade of his death was so ubiquitous that the only choice was "aw fuck this! let's bring him back".
And in my honest opinion, the resurrection of Hal and the retconing of Parallax were done as good as the circumstances allowed.Besides, at least it reestablished Guy Garner as a Green Lantern and did away with that Guy Garner/Warrior non-sense.

[chap22]

If I may add something to the Hal debate,one of the flaws about Hal/Parallax was IMO that DC almost seemed to had regretted the decision almost immediately.it wasn't very long before he attacked Kyle trying to regain the GL ring,then came the Final Night in which he died in a last act of redemption(note:I personally think that was a fitting and satisfactory end for Hal's history) but they could not let it well alone.He kept coming back as a ghost or via time travel and eventually became the new(and fairly bad) host for the Spectre.
Frankly,the presence of Hal after nearly a decade of his death was so ubiquitous that the only choice was "aw fuck this! let's bring him back".
And in my honest opinion, the resurrection of Hal and the retconing of Parallax were done as good as the circumstances allowed.Besides, at least it reestablished Guy Garner as a Green Lantern and did away with that Guy Garner/Warrior non-sense.

i tend to agree with all of this. esp. the last part.

[Benderbrau]

If I may add something to the Hal debate,one of the flaws about Hal/Parallax was IMO that DC almost seemed to had regretted the decision almost immediately.it wasn't very long before he attacked Kyle trying to regain the GL ring,then came the Final Night in which he died in a last act of redemption(note:I personally think that was a fitting and satisfactory end for Hal's history) but they could not let it well alone.He kept coming back as a ghost or via time travel and eventually became the new(and fairly bad) host for the Spectre.
Frankly,the presence of Hal after nearly a decade of his death was so ubiquitous that the only choice was "aw fuck this! let's bring him back".
And in my honest opinion, the resurrection of Hal and the retconing of Parallax were done as good as the circumstances allowed.Besides, at least it reestablished Guy Garner as a Green Lantern and did away with that Guy Garner/Warrior non-sense.

I liked Hal as the Spectre. It gave both characters a presence in the DCU and did it using modern established canon (ie: a human host in need of redemption being bound to the God's rage).

But I also liked GL Rebirth. It was a well written and well illustrated story that, as you said, made the most of a bad situation.

[draco x]

If I may add something to the Hal debate,one of the flaws about Hal/Parallax was IMO that DC almost seemed to had regretted the decision almost immediately.it wasn't very long before he attacked Kyle trying to regain the GL ring,then came the Final Night in which he died in a last act of redemption(note:I personally think that was a fitting and satisfactory end for Hal's history) but they could not let it well alone.He kept coming back as a ghost or via time travel and eventually became the new(and fairly bad) host for the Spectre.
Frankly,the presence of Hal after nearly a decade of his death was so ubiquitous that the only choice was "aw fuck this! let's bring him back".
And in my honest opinion, the resurrection of Hal and the retconing of Parallax were done as good as the circumstances allowed.Besides, at least it reestablished Guy Garner as a Green Lantern and did away with that Guy Garner/Warrior non-sense.

Agreed. As for the Guy Gardner thing, his Vuldarian heritage was so dumb how that got shoehorned into his history. The 90's were not kind to the Green Lanterns with the exception of Kyle Rayner.

[draco x]

I liked Hal as the Spectre. It gave both characters a presence in the DCU and did it using modern established canon (ie: a human host in need of redemption being bound to the God's rage).

But I also liked GL Rebirth. It was a well written and well illustrated story that, as you said, made the most of a bad situation.

Agreed for the most part.

[draco x]

i tend to agree with all of this. esp. the last part.

Me as well.