The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[achilles]

Well? Anyone?

They should settle it with pistols at 20 paces. A hit on Moore's beard or drug supply, (which he probably keeps in his beard), counts as instant death, especially if it stirs up some of the ancient monsters that live there, or sends the LSD into the air.

[PDH]

Great post, Silverphoenix.

[Arion]

After reading this Interview twice, here are the things I took away from it.

1) If it wasn't already obvious, DC got real fucking lucky with how Watchmen was able to capture the zetigeist of the Comic Book Fans, along with capturing the attention of those who usually don't read comics. Of course, this isn't saying that Watchmen is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but the fact that DC can do what it wants with the property because the original will never go out of print has got to be one of the greatest instances of pure dumb luck in their favor.

2) Alan Moore has every right to feel the way he does about this situation, no matter how much kicking and screaming that his nay sayers do.

3) While I empathize with Moore, his bad experiences have shaped his perception on the medium in such a way that they make him blind to the many examples of exemplary work since Watchmen. Not only does he pay a disservice to the medium as a whole (even if I do respect the reasons why he feels this way), but his mindset inadvertently contributes to the next point....

4) On its biggest stage, Comics as a medium is far too obsessed with the past. Whether it be the nearly endless use of characters created in the first 2/3rds of the 20th century, to the slavish devotion to a marketable status-quo that makes lasting changes to the shared Universe's overall narrative impossible, to the celebration of the derivative, it's no wonder why we can't keep the interest of new fans long enough to make an impact. Taking all of that into consideration...

5) This has to be the most creatively bankrupt summer I've ever seen on a "mainstream" comics level. With AvX's biggest hook (because I'm not sure anyone gives a shit about the story in this case) being something they've done twice before this, with one of those times being in the past 8 months and Before Watchmen being Before Watchmen, this summer will not be for those who lament on the lack of creatively of Marvel and DC.

Personally...

- I thank my lucky stars for the Indies, otherwise I would seriously consider using the rest of year to solely continue adding to my trade collection.

- I hope Before Watchmen and AvX bring in fans that are open to different experiences

- I hope that Before Watchmen and AvX aren't so badly received, that they alienate even more people from the medium.

6) By far the most important thing I took away from all of this (and I hope I'm not alone in this) is that aspiring creators have a responsibility to think outside of the box. While there is no crime in having aspirations to write Batman and Spider Man, the medium is at a point where the next great story that's going to capture the minds of the mass market isn't going to come from those characters and unless DC and Marvel change the way they deal with creators, it won't come from those companies. It's going to come from someone who isn't held back by the way things are, but from someone who thinks of what could be.

My 22 Cents.

Excellent post, although I would have phrased point # 3 differently...

[SilverPhoenix]

Well? Anyone?

From where I sit, I think power should rest on the proportion of the work that creators' do on the property. For example, if both (or a party of) creators have agreed that they are equally responsible for the creation of a story, then anyone who wants to do business needs the approval of everyone involved to proceed.

If one creator is the principal (but can't be seen as the person who came up with an overwhelming part of the concept (i.e. 80% or more) ) then there word should have the most influence on what happens to the story and the I.P. it is legal purposes. At the same time, considerations of the co-creator(s) should come into account.

If one creator can be credited for the grand majority of the concept, then that creator's voice should be greater than his or her collaborators.

Of course, this isn't a perfect system, simply because once it gets to the legal dispute level, then it becomes that much harder to assign percentages to work, but I think it's a good place to start.

[Stephen Day]

After reading this Interview twice, here are the things I took away from it.

1) If it wasn't already obvious, DC got real fucking lucky with how Watchmen was able to capture the zetigeist of the Comic Book Fans, along with capturing the attention of those who usually don't read comics. Of course, this isn't saying that Watchmen is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but the fact that DC can do what it wants with the property because the original will never go out of print has got to be one of the greatest instances of pure dumb luck in their favor.

2) Alan Moore has every right to feel the way he does about this situation, no matter how much kicking and screaming that his nay sayers do.

3) While I empathize with Moore, his bad experiences have shaped his perception on the medium in such a way that they make him blind to the many examples of exemplary work since Watchmen. Not only does he pay a disservice to the medium as a whole (even if I do respect the reasons why he feels this way), but his mindset inadvertently contributes to the next point....

4) On its biggest stage, Comics as a medium is far too obsessed with the past. Whether it be the nearly endless use of characters created in the first 2/3rds of the 20th century, to the slavish devotion to a marketable status-quo that makes lasting changes to the shared Universe's overall narrative impossible, to the celebration of the derivative, it's no wonder why we can't keep the interest of new fans long enough to make an impact. Taking all of that into consideration...

5) This has to be the most creatively bankrupt summer I've ever seen on a "mainstream" comics level. With AvX's biggest hook (because I'm not sure anyone gives a shit about the story in this case) being something they've done twice before this, with one of those times being in the past 8 months and Before Watchmen being Before Watchmen, this summer will not be for those who lament on the lack of creatively of Marvel and DC.

Personally...

- I thank my lucky stars for the Indies, otherwise I would seriously consider using the rest of year to solely continue adding to my trade collection.

- I hope Before Watchmen and AvX bring in fans that are open to different experiences

- I hope that Before Watchmen and AvX aren't so badly received, that they alienate even more people from the medium.

6) By far the most important thing I took away from all of this (and I hope I'm not alone in this) is that aspiring creators have a responsibility to think outside of the box. While there is no crime in having aspirations to write Batman and Spider Man, the medium is at a point where the next great story that's going to capture the minds of the mass market isn't going to come from those characters and unless DC and Marvel change the way they deal with creators, it won't come from those companies. It's going to come from someone who isn't held back by the way things are, but from someone who thinks of what could be.

My 22 Cents.

Well put.

[SilverPhoenix]

Excellent post, although I would have phrased point # 3 differently...

I'm curious. How would you have phrased it?

[alaska1125]

Robert Kirkman has a pretty great write-up at the end of Thief of Thieves #1 titled "I Believe in Comic Books" that solidifies my opinion that Moore is a bitter, close-minded relic. And a hypocrite. It's nearly impossible to take his rants seriously. That said, I'm off to reread V for Vendetta. What? It's from the Pre-"bitter asshat" days.

[David Bird]

As things stand, we tend to think of the artist and writer as co-creators, regardless of how the story or character was brought together, and at the same time we tend to privilege the writer above the artist. I think the idea is that the artist work is based on another's, but given that its a visual medium you'd think his or her work would carry some clout.

In this particular case Moore has been vocal about his feelings for sometime and his arguments have won some support, while Gibbons has largely kept out of the discussion--other than to give his support to the idea. Or allow his support to be acknowledged. I haven't actually read any statements by him. Anyway, in this particular case I think people tend to give Moore's views more weight because he's spent time articulating them.

[habitual]

As things stand, we tend to think of the artist and writer as co-creators, regardless of how the story or character was brought together, and at the same time we tend to privilege the writer above the artist. I think the idea is that the artist work is based on another's, but given that its a visual medium you'd think his or her work would carry some clout.

In this particular case Moore has been vocal about his feelings for sometime and his arguments have won some support, while Gibbons has largely kept out of the discussion--other than to give his support to the idea. Or allow his support to be acknowledged. I haven't actually read any statements by him. Anyway, in this particular case I think people tend to give Moore's views more weight because he's spent time articulating them.

Moore is unique in this regard. He's one of the few in this league that isn't credited as both writer and artist, only writer.

Hab

[avengingtitan]

Alan Moore's secret plan to fix DC REVEALED!!!!!!

[Reveal] Spoiler: Click to Expand

[Royal Nonesuch]

4) On its biggest stage, Comics as a medium is far too obsessed with the past. Whether it be the nearly endless use of characters created in the first 2/3rds of the 20th century, to the slavish devotion to a marketable status-quo that makes lasting changes to the shared Universe's overall narrative impossible, to the celebration of the derivative, it's no wonder why we can't keep the interest of new fans long enough to make an impact. Taking all of that into consideration...

If you fixed this one word, I'd agree with what you had to say in your post completely. It isn't the medium that's the problem, it's the industry that's obsessed with the past. There's nothing inherent in the comics medium that makes it constantly mine the past. It's all because of the industry it's stuck in. That's a very important and not minor distinction to make.

[SilverPhoenix]

If you fixed this one word, I'd agree with what you had to say in your post completely. It isn't the medium that's the problem, it's the industry that's obsessed with the past. There's nothing inherent in the comics medium that makes it constantly mine the past. It's all because of the industry it's stuck in. That's a very important and not minor distinction to make.

... You know what?

You're absolutely right. Comics as a Medium doesn't make one automatically be drawn to nostalgia driven networks that don't advance the characters' narratives or their inherit relatiblity to its' fans (which is something that Marvel used to become the top Publishing imprint back in the 60s and 70s). It's the people who have been put in charge of the Industry that have allowed this type of thinking to exist and by not making that distinction, I have shown that I still have a bit to go before I divorce myself of that thinking.

Thank you, editing that part of my post now.

[Victorian Squid]

- I hope Before Watchmen and AvX bring in fans that are open to different experiences

Neither one is going to bring in any new fans.

[bkthomson]

Neither one is going to bring in any new fans.

I think BW may but agree with AvX. Of course I hope I'm wrong.

[Victorian Squid]

Also "the industry" as a generalization aren't the only ones obsessed with the past--the truth is comics readers are the ones most firmly stuck, even many of the ones that protest otherwise, once a change is made to a property or even continuity they are familiar with. Almost everyone here reads mainly comic books featuring characters created decades before they were born, those comics are the past. By definition they can't be anything but at some point along a repeating cycle of events.

You make a post about an excellent truly independent or small press comic and you get virtually no responses every time.

You make a post about "which Avenger would you like to see punch which X-Man?" and people crawl out of the wood-work.