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by **ReturnoftheMack** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:19 am

Doc Jon wrote:And as far as the baby and Carl, it's called struggling with a decision. In both cases, it was her decision, and she chose for them to live. Just because she struggled with it doesn't make it inconsistent. Not wanting your child to grow up in a world of the walking dead isn't exactly wrong. Just bringing it up and talking about it with your husband isn't wrong. She didn't endanger his life and chose to have the surgery.

To even consider such a thing for longer than 10 seconds is barbaric IMO.

by **Doc Jon** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:22 am

I mean if you want to nitpick, why not nitpick Darryl going off on Carol? Remember that?

He yelled at her for not watching Sophia closely enough.
He was mad at her because all she asked was that he not go out there and rest after his injuries.
And then he was mad at the whole group because he's the one who wanted to go out there and search for her.

Now, do I understand all these reactions? Sure. But you can nitpick them to death if you like, just like most people do with Lori.

There is nothing Carol could have done to prevent Sophia's death.

Getting mad at Carol because she was looking out for him was just silly.

No one told him to go out there alone, he insisted on it, over and over.

by **Doc Jon** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:23 am

The President wrote:
To even consider such a thing for longer than 10 seconds is barbaric IMO.

It's a barbaric world. And it was often considered in the Road, because it was a reality of their situation. As I recall, people loved that book and movie. Lori isn't much different that the mother there.

by **ReturnoftheMack** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:36 am

Doc Jon wrote:I mean if you want to nitpick, why not nitpick Darryl going off on Carol? Remember that?

He yelled at her for not watching Sophia closely enough.
He was mad at her because all she asked was that he not go out there and rest after his injuries.
And then he was mad at the whole group because he's the one who wanted to go out there and search for her.

Now, do I understand all these reactions? Sure. But you can nitpick them to death if you like, just like most people do with Lori.

There is nothing Carol could have done to prevent Sophia's death.

Getting mad at Carol because she was looking out for him was just silly.

No one told him to go out there alone, he insisted on it, over and over.

Why is it nitpicking? She's the third lead of the show (now second). Everything she does is under scrutiny.

As far as Daryl goes, he's an awful person. He's a racist and a bit of a psycho, but he rides a cool bike and shoots with a crossbow so he's badass. Also, his character is one searching for redemption so you sympathize with him because he's trying his best to be a good person.

Lori isn't even apologetic. :smt102

by **ReturnoftheMack** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:37 am

Doc Jon wrote:
It's a barbaric world. And it was often considered in the Road, because it was a reality of their situation. As I recall, people loved that book and movie. Lori isn't much different that the mother there.

I didn't see the Road.

by **rdrsfn82** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:38 am

Shane probably would have snapped even without Lori.

That has nothing to do with Lori being a selfish character who makes dumb choices on a regular basis.

by **ReturnoftheMack** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:40 am

rdrsfn82 wrote:Shane probably would have snapped even without Lori.

That has nothing to do with Lori being a selfish character who makes dumb choices on a regular basis.

I don't think there's any evidence of that.

He was pretty normal till Rick came back. He was even heroic.

by **rdrsfn82** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:49 am

The President wrote:
I don't think there's any evidence of that.

He was pretty normal till Rick came back. He was even heroic.

I think that he liked being in power, didn't really deal well with the whole end of the world thing, and was going to be jealous of whomever stepped up to be in charge and go nuts on them.

And I don't think he would have made a good long term leader, as he was already making certain mistakes, not thinking about certain things, and the fact they were safe had more to do with luck and less to do with him being a great leader.

So while his personality pre-Rick was good, I think sooner or later someone would have stepped up and his crazy would have seeped out.

But again, that has nothing to do with whether or not Lori is awful.

by **Doc Jon** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:55 am

The President wrote:
I'm not sure why you think that. Shane was a normal guy before. His only motivation was Lori and to a lesser extent Carl. There was no other evidence that Shan "had issues." Without Lori, Shane would not have been crazy IMO.

It's pretty clear that Shane had issues with Rick's leadership. He undermines him at every turn. He was the leader before Rick came along, and everyone turned to Rick, because he's the more natural leader. They would have had a showdown because Shane couldn't play second fiddle. I think that was fairly obvious.

by **Doc Jon** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:57 am

rdrsfn82 wrote:
I think that he liked being in power, didn't really deal well with the whole end of the world thing, and was going to be jealous of whomever stepped up to be in charge and go nuts on them.

And I don't think he would have made a good long term leader, as he was already making certain mistakes, not thinking about certain things, and the fact they were safe had more to do with luck and less to do with him being a great leader.

So while his personality pre-Rick was good, I think sooner or later someone would have stepped up and his crazy would have seeped out.

Agreed. Shane was heroic not because of some personality trait, but because he wanted people to praise him, because he was playing the role.

by **Doc Jon** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:00 am

The President wrote:
Why is it nitpicking? She's the third lead of the show (now second). Everything she does is under scrutiny.

As far as Daryl goes, he's an awful person. He's a racist and a bit of a psycho, but he rides a cool bike and shoots with a crossbow so he's badass. Also, his character is one searching for redemption so you sympathize with him because he's trying his best to be a good person.

Lori isn't even apologetic.

Merle was racist.

Darryl has not shown that at all. How has he been an awful person? If anything, he has been the most naturally heroic character on the show. He thinks little of himself and does what's best for the group. He speaks plainly when there's a problem and doesn't snipe at all. He doesn't question Rick at all and is a good soldier and helps provide for the group.

I think I'm seeing a different version of the show than the one you're watching. :-D

by **rdrsfn82** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:10 am

Doc Jon wrote:
Agreed. Shane was heroic not because of some personality trait, but because he wanted people to praise him, because he was playing the role.

That's not exactly how I see it.

I think initially it came from a good place. He wanted to save his partner's wife and child because he was unable to save Rick and unable to save his other friends and the world was spinning out of control. I just think he became addicted to the power.

I think if not for the zombies, he's a good guy.

I think the zombie apocalypse was too much for him to handle and he snapped, or rather slowly slid into madness.

by **rdrsfn82** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:12 am

Doc Jon wrote:
Merle was racist.

Darryl has not shown that at all. How has he been an awful person? If anything, he has been the most naturally heroic character on the show. He thinks little of himself and does what's best for the group. He speaks plainly when there's a problem and doesn't snipe at all. He doesn't question Rick at all and is a good soldier and helps provide for the group.

I think I'm seeing a different version of the show than the one you're watching.

He idolized his brother and did whatever he said, and had racist traits in season 1 before Merle was lost. It was only after that, as he tried to be his own man for the first time, that you saw how different he was from his brother and started to evolve into a hero.

He's basically the anti-Shane. The end of the world is what finally let him become a good person.

by **Doc Jon** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:15 am

rdrsfn82 wrote:
He idolized his brother and did whatever he said, and had racist traits in season 1 before Merle was lost. It was only after that, as he tried to be his own man for the first time, that you saw how different he was from his brother and started to evolve into a hero.

He can be an ass and brash, but I never saw him being an awful person. Isn't he bringing food for everyone the first time we see him?

And he's mostly an ass early because they cuffed his brother and left him for dead, and he still let that go pretty quick. No, I think Darryl is a pretty good guy from early on.

by **rdrsfn82** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:18 am

He pretty much says that he was forced to be an awful person when he's hallucinating earlier this year. He wasn't a bad person deep down, we know that now, but he was a guy that couldn't or wouldn't stand up to his brother and as such was involved in various shady things. And he's acting racist and following everything his brother says at first.

You can say it was just his brother dragging him down, which it was, but he was far from a good person when he first showed up.

He's really the character who's had the most growth over the course of the first two seasons.