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[Strict31]

I guess I'm gonna disagree with most people here about the barn.

If the intent was to stay on the farm (which up to that point was the best place they had found by miles) then I don't think it was the way to go.

It's great that Rick was able to talk Hershel down, but the idea of having to kill him, Jimmy, Patricia, Maggie and Beth is not something I would chalk up, "well it just had to be done." That road leads to the Governor and that's not how I would conduct myself.

It's not that I wouldn't want to get rid of the walkers, but I wouldn't have done what Shane did. It was a clear challenge, not only to Hershel, but to Rick. And that led to a knife in the heart and then a bullet to the head.

Here's the thing: none of us here are Rick, and none of us here are Shane. I don't have a kid and I'm not a cop, y'know? So, I'm not putting myself into their shoes to come at these questions you're asking, but rather my own. At least, when I'm not joking around about it.

Hershel was dangerously deluded, however. So critically misguided about what was going on that he didn't even allow guns in his house. With Walkers straying onto the property with absolutely nothing to stop them; falling into well-water holes and such, the Farm is not only unsecured, but it is also an active hazard. That means Hershel's refusal to see the truth is also a hazard.

There's absolutely no way I'm going to entrust my safety to a man who is purposely deluding himself, and that farm was never safe. The people on that farm were simply lucky. It's doubtful I would have even stayed at the farm except maybe to replenish supplies or maybe trade some goods or to tap a bit of countryfied booty. Probably wouldn't even have stayed long enough to discover the secret of the barn.

But I cannot imagine having a wife and a child and allowing what was in that barn to survive, only a few hundred feet from where we were staying. Just because the nice old guy with the defenseless property thinks Walkers are just sick people who can be cured. I cannot imagine doing that without a family to protect.

So, the farm has little to no value to me as a place to stay or settle or whatever the fuck the group intended to do, and assuaging Hershel's ego and delusions has zero value to me.

[Doc Jon]

Here's the thing: none of us here are Rick, and none of us here are Shane. I don't have a kid and I'm not a cop, y'know? So, I'm not putting myself into their shoes to come at these questions you're asking, but rather my own. At least, when I'm not joking around about it.

Hershel was dangerously deluded, however. So critically misguided about what was going on that he didn't even allow guns in his house. With Walkers straying onto the property with absolutely nothing to stop them; falling into well-water holes and such, the Farm is not only unsecured, but it is also an active hazard. That means Hershel's refusal to see the truth is also a hazard.

There's absolutely no way I'm going to entrust my safety to a man who is purposely deluding himself, and that farm was never safe. The people on that farm were simply lucky. It's doubtful I would have even stayed at the farm except maybe to replenish supplies or maybe trade some goods or to tap a bit of countryfied booty. Probably wouldn't even have stayed long enough to discover the secret of the barn.

But I cannot imagine having a wife and a child and allowing what was in that barn to survive, only a few hundred feet from where we were staying. Just because the nice old guy with the defenseless property thinks Walkers are just sick people who can be cured. I cannot imagine doing that without a family to protect.

So, the farm has little to no value to me as a place to stay or settle or whatever the fuck the group intended to do, and assuaging Hershel's ego and delusions has zero value to me.

Well that's fine, but as you've said, you have no intention of staying on the farm.

I think many others would have.

Not really the thread for it, but I also don't know how you would have secured that farm in the 2-3 weeks that they were on it. Very few things would have stopped that herd and most of the work done would have most likely been wasted.

Once more, these people aren't really survivalists, nor do they have the benefit of really knowing what is going on in this zombie apocalypse. Also, they weren't welcome to stay. When they were, they began to build fortifications, but it was too little too late. Why would they have put in the work to build all that stuff if they were just going to move on anyway?

[Doc Jon]

And I know you were joking, but again, why would you waste bullets or the possibility of infection on clearing out a barn if you had no intention of staying?

[Strict31]

Well that's fine, but as you've said, you have no intention of staying on the farm.

I think many others would have.

Not really the thread for it, but I also don't know how you would have secured that farm in the 2-3 weeks that they were on it. Very few things would have stopped that herd and most of the work done would have most likely been wasted.

Once more, these people aren't really survivalists, nor do they have the benefit of really knowing what is going on in this zombie apocalypse. Also, they weren't welcome to stay. When they were, they began to build fortifications, but it was too little too late. Why would they have put in the work to build all that stuff if they were just going to move on anyway?

There's no way to fully secure that farm without serious construction efforts, which is why I said I wouldn't have stayed there longer than I needed to trade goods or hump some bitches.

Lookit...I understand that not every person out there has thought as much about the Zombie Apocalypse as I have. And that's a valid enough excuse until you start stockpiling the living dead in your barn. At that point, you lose absolutely any benefit of the doubt I might give you for simply not being familiar with anti-zombie survival tactics, and you start straying into the realm of "dangerously, blatantly stoo-pit."

The closest thing the group has found to a secure location was the CDC HQ, and that was ruined by one nutbag with his finger on the "explode everything" button.

I understand it may not have been as obvious to everyone that the folks on the farm were living on borrowed time, but that's the viewpoint I'm coming from. And I'm not just talking from the benefit of hindsight, because I've been saying this same thing all along in Chris's episodic Rate This threads.

But, as I said before, just because I'm unwilling to stay there does not mean I think it is cool to just leave those deluded fuckers at the farm with a ticking time bomb in the barn. Just leaving them with those zombies in the barn is akin to saying "I'm okay with you nice (but misguided) folks dying because fuck your eyes."

Whether it required bullets or machetes or just a good old-fashioned zombie bonfire, I couldn't just leave those farm folks with a pack of undead waiting for them to make their first and last mistake. It would be like walking past a toddler playing with a loaded pistol in his mouth and saying, "Oh well, sorry about his luck."

[PDH]

Not really the thread for it, but I also don't know how you would have secured that farm in the 2-3 weeks that they were on it. Very few things would have stopped that herd and most of the work done would have most likely been wasted.

I think that's kind of his point, though. The farm just wasn't secure. I think the purpose that the farm serves in the story is to teach the characters that they have to find somewhere safer: it's their motivation behind claiming the prison as their own.

This is part of why I didn't want them to linger at the farm too long (there are lots of other reasons, too, but they're more about the dramatic potential). It's there to make a specific point and the characters learned that lesson much more quickly in the comics. When you spend a whole season in that place it really starts to make them look like idiots.

As for the zombies in the barn, I wouldn't have dealt with it the way that Shane did but it needed to be dealt with, even if you're only going to stay there for a short time. And someone should have at least considered that Sophia might have been in there.

[Doc Jon]

I think that's kind of his point, though. The farm just wasn't secure. I think the purpose that the farm serves in the story is to teach the characters that they have to find somewhere safer: it's their motivation behind claiming the prison as their own.

This is part of why I didn't want them to linger at the farm too long (there are lots of other reasons, too, but they're more about the dramatic potential). It's there to make a specific point and the characters learned that lesson much more quickly in the comics. When you spend a whole season in that place it really starts to make them look like idiots.

As for the zombies in the barn, I wouldn't have dealt with it the way that Shane did but it needed to be dealt with, even if you're only going to stay there for a short time. And someone should have at least considered that Sophia might have been in there.

Here's the problem when you look at it as a season. They were not there a year. By most estimates, it seems like they were on the farm about a month. Some of that is just waiting for Carl to heal.

Their plan was to go to Fort Benning, but they find out that it's overrun as well.

I'm not really sure where you guys think an easily accessible secure place exists, but I really don't know that it's as easy to find as you suggest.

They had what, 4 people truly capable of fighting. Daryl, Rick, SHane, maybe T-Dog and Glen and then Andrea. They're not exactly equipped to be fighting someone else for a fortified location should it already be taken.

Even when you look at stuff like Woodbury in the comics, it wasn't secure, and they had way more people, way more guns and fortifications.

[Doc Jon]

There's no way to fully secure that farm without serious construction efforts, which is why I said I wouldn't have stayed there longer than I needed to trade goods or hump some bitches.

Lookit...I understand that not every person out there has thought as much about the Zombie Apocalypse as I have. And that's a valid enough excuse until you start stockpiling the living dead in your barn. At that point, you lose absolutely any benefit of the doubt I might give you for simply not being familiar with anti-zombie survival tactics, and you start straying into the realm of "dangerously, blatantly stoo-pit."

The closest thing the group has found to a secure location was the CDC HQ, and that was ruined by one nutbag with his finger on the "explode everything" button.

I understand it may not have been as obvious to everyone that the folks on the farm were living on borrowed time, but that's the viewpoint I'm coming from. And I'm not just talking from the benefit of hindsight, because I've been saying this same thing all along in Chris's episodic Rate This threads.

But, as I said before, just because I'm unwilling to stay there does not mean I think it is cool to just leave those deluded fuckers at the farm with a ticking time bomb in the barn. Just leaving them with those zombies in the barn is akin to saying "I'm okay with you nice (but misguided) folks dying because fuck your eyes."

Whether it required bullets or machetes or just a good old-fashioned zombie bonfire, I couldn't just leave those farm folks with a pack of undead waiting for them to make their first and last mistake. It would be like walking past a toddler playing with a loaded pistol in his mouth and saying, "Oh well, sorry about his luck."

You usually make sense. Destroying a barn and putting yourself at odds with another group that you don't plan on staying with as you make a decision they disagree with for "their benefit" doesn't really seem to make sense.

WHat if Hershel doesn't take it passively? What if he pulls a gun on you while you're trying to clear out the barn? DO you kill him? YOu may have to. So who are you really protecting?

[Strict31]

You usually make sense. Destroying a barn and putting yourself at odds with another group that you don't plan on staying with as you make a decision they disagree with for "their benefit" doesn't really seem to make sense.

WHat if Hershel doesn't take it passively? What if he pulls a gun on you while you're trying to clear out the barn? DO you kill him? YOu may have to. So who are you really protecting?

Be rather hard for a man who doesn't allow guns in his house.

But if he ceases from being a kindly but misguided old dude and goes to gun-toting asshole trying to protect the undead, then he stops being a guy I'd be motivated to protect. Yeah, I'm flexible like that, but that doesn't change my motivation, which is to keep innocent fuckers from living next door to a time bomb.

I mean, we could do all sorts of "what ifs" here. What if he transforms into the Incredible Hulk while I'm trying to save his family's goddamned lives? Well, then I let the Hulk deal with it and bounce, because that means they can clearly handle the danger on their own.

But, at the end of the day, Hershel was still a guy placing his own family at risk through his own delusions. And unless he did something to make himself an immediate danger to me, then yeah, I'd try to save him (and his daughters...ahem) from his own dangerous delusions. If it was just Hershel living there alone, perhaps that would be different. And that's a big PERHAPS, because I'd still likely feel the same way. But he had his goddamned daughters going into that barn to feed these undead fuckers.

I am incapable of abiding that.

I mean, if I found out, a year down the road, that they all got eaten by the zombies in their barn, and I could have done something to keep that from happening but didn't, I'd feel like shit. Shrugging one's shoulders and saying, "oh well, they dug their own graves" would be rather cold comfort.

Same way I'd keep somebody I've never met face to face from committing suicide (which I have done). Couldn't live with myself knowing I could have done something and chose not to, simply because it was difficult. Or simply because it wasn't any of my business. Just like with that kid I mentioned who tried to kill himself, I don't give a fuck if they hate me afterwards or even during. Because at least they're alive to do the hating. And that's worth some bullets.

[Doc Jon]

Be rather hard for a man who doesn't allow guns in his house.

But if he ceases from being a kindly but misguided old dude and goes to gun-toting asshole trying to protect the undead, then he stops being a guy I'd be motivated to protect. Yeah, I'm flexible like that, but that doesn't change my motivation, which is to keep innocent fuckers from living next door to a time bomb.

I mean, we could do all sorts of "what ifs" here. What if he transforms into the Incredible Hulk while I'm trying to save his family's goddamned lives? Well, then I let the Hulk deal with it and bounce, because that means they can clearly handle the danger on their own.

But, at the end of the day, Hershel was still a guy placing his own family at risk through his own delusions. And unless he did something to make himself an immediate danger to me, then yeah, I'd try to save him (and his daughters...ahem) from his own dangerous delusions. If it was just Hershel living there alone, perhaps that would be different. And that's a big PERHAPS, because I'd still likely feel the same way. But he had his goddamned daughters going into that barn to feed these undead fuckers.

I am incapable of abiding that.

I mean, if I found out, a year down the road, that they all got eaten by the zombies in their barn, and I could have done something to keep that from happening but didn't, I'd feel like shit. Shrugging one's shoulders and saying, "oh well, they dug their own graves" would be rather cold comfort.

Same way I'd keep somebody I've never met face to face from committing suicide (which I have done). Couldn't live with myself knowing I could have done something and chose not to, simply because it was difficult. Or simply because it wasn't any of my business. Just like with that kid I mentioned who tried to kill himself, I don't give a fuck if they hate me afterwards or even during. Because at least they're alive to do the hating. And that's worth some bullets.

Not to mention the fact that all that firing may undoubtedly bring more walkers down on you.

It still doesn't make any sense. You want to save them from one delusion, but then you're happy to book it and leave them on an unsecured farm that you apparently KNOW is going to bite it. So again, all you're doing is creating enemies, risking infection, wasting ammo for people who are doomed anyway.

Who cares if they get eaten by the zombies in the barn or a passing herd? The end result is the same and all you've don is waste precious resources because you can't stand to see someone have a delusion that would have no apparent effect on you.

C'mon, you know it makes no sense.

[PDH]

Here's the problem when you look at it as a season. They were not there a year. By most estimates, it seems like they were on the farm about a month. Some of that is just waiting for Carl to heal.

Their plan was to go to Fort Benning, but they find out that it's overrun as well.

I'm not really sure where you guys think an easily accessible secure place exists, but I really don't know that it's as easy to find as you suggest.

They had what, 4 people truly capable of fighting. Daryl, Rick, SHane, maybe T-Dog and Glen and then Andrea. They're not exactly equipped to be fighting someone else for a fortified location should it already be taken.

Even when you look at stuff like Woodbury in the comics, it wasn't secure, and they had way more people, way more guns and fortifications.

But they didn't even look. I'm not saying don't go to Hershel's farm at all but get your act together. Ask about the barn. 'We can't go in there? Why's that, exactly? Is it a haunted barn? No? Because I can hear noises coming from in there?'

Scout. Check the defences. It will quickly become obvious that you don't want an extended stay in this place.

Hershel thinks these people are alive but that they have a disease. He was really shocked when Shane shot one and it didn't die. Well, there's a fucking zombie in your well, Hershel, who got ripped in two and was still alive. What do you make of that, huh? Just a flesh wound, is it?

And if he still doesn't get the point after that then he's the second most deluded character in all of literature after the Black Knight from Monty Python. He needs to have it explained to him. You're not doing him any favours by being polite, you're putting him and his family at risk. Not to mention yourselves.

There were not a dozen episodes worth of dilemmas on that farm, there were two or three fairly straight forward problems with obvious solutions. Yes, it's one thing to know what you have to do and another thing to actually be able to do it but the correct course of action was not a mystery. You don't really have the luxury of cold feet in that situation, you have to just man up and do what needs to be done.

[Doc Jon]

But they didn't even look. I'm not saying don't go to Hershel's farm at all but get your act together. Ask about the barn. 'We can't go in there? Why's that, exactly? Is it a haunted barn? No? Because I can hear noises coming from in there?'

Scout. Check the defences. It will quickly become obvious that you don't want an extended stay in this place.

Hershel thinks these people are alive but that they have a disease. He was really shocked when Shane shot one and it didn't die. Well, there's a fucking zombie in your well, Hershel, who got ripped in two and was still alive. What do you make of that, huh? Just a flesh wound, is it?

And if he still doesn't get the point after that then he's the second most deluded character in all of literature after the Black Knight from Monty Python. He needs to have it explained to him. You're not doing him any favours by being polite, you're putting him and his family at risk. Not to mention yourselves.

There were not a dozen episodes worth of dilemmas on that farm, there were two or three fairly straight forward problems with obvious solutions. Yes, it's one thing to know what you have to do and another thing to actually be able to do it but the correct course of action was not a mystery. You don't really have the luxury of cold feet in that situation, you have to just man up and do what needs to be done.

I don't think you're getting the delusion Hershel held or why he clung to it. He KNEW how the human body worked and I'm pretty sure that he knew there was no hope for those people. BUT, it was the only hope he had in that world. He states it plainly. Letting go of that delusion literally shatters him. If Rick didn't drag him off that farm, he would have happily died just firing at the walkers.

He loses most motivation to live once he lets go of that delusion.

In fact, most of the people on that show are delusional. They find out that they are all infected. SO basically there is no end to this apocalypse. There will always be new zombies no matter what. There is no government, no CDC, no cure and little possibility of one.

But they cling to that hope that there is something better out there. Why? Because the alternative is eating a bullet.

[PDH]

I don't think you're getting the delusion Hershel held or why he clung to it. He KNEW how the human body worked and I'm pretty sure that he knew there was no hope for those people. BUT, it was the only hope he had in that world. He states it plainly. Letting go of that delusion literally shatters him. If Rick didn't drag him off that farm, he would have happily died just firing at the walkers.

He loses most motivation to live once he lets go of that delusion.

In fact, most of the people on that show are delusional. They find out that they are all infected. SO basically there is no end to this apocalypse. There will always be new zombies no matter what. There is no government, no CDC, no cure and little possibility of one.

But they cling to that hope that there is something better out there. Why? Because the alternative is eating a bullet.

The alternative is making the best of what you've got, which is all anyone can ever do.

We're all going to die. Death is non negotiable. That's why 'they're all infected.' Because zombies are a metaphor for death. It's an important thematic point that a lot of zombie films neglect. You don't need to get bit. Everyone who dies, no matter how they die, becomes 'one of those things outside.'

Nonetheless, it is a fallacy to say, 'things are really bad so let's make them worse.'

Accepting reality is not the same thing as accepting despair. Quite the opposite. You can face the truth head on and fight against the inevitable for as long as possible. Or you can give up like a pussy and throw your dignity and reason away for the sake of comforting fantasy. None of this requires delusion.

There are those of us who prefer a hard truth to an easy lie. The alternative is to fight.

[Strict31]

Not to mention the fact that all that firing may undoubtedly bring more walkers down on you.

It still doesn't make any sense. You want to save them from one delusion, but then you're happy to book it and leave them on an unsecured farm that you apparently KNOW is going to bite it. So again, all you're doing is creating enemies, risking infection, wasting ammo for people who are doomed anyway.

Who cares if they get eaten by the zombies in the barn or a passing herd? The end result is the same and all you've don is waste precious resources because you can't stand to see someone have a delusion that would have no apparent effect on you.

C'mon, you know it makes no sense.

They're free to come along if they feel they can carry their weight.

[Doc Jon]

The alternative is making the best of what you've got, which is all anyone can ever do.

We're all going to die. Death is non negotiable. That's why 'they're all infected.' Because zombies are a metaphor for death. It's an important thematic point that a lot of zombie films neglect. You don't need to get bit. Everyone who dies, no matter how they die, becomes 'one of those things outside.'

Nonetheless, it is a fallacy to say, 'things are really bad so let's make them worse.'

Accepting reality is not the same thing as accepting despair. Quite the opposite. You can face the truth head on and fight against the inevitable for as long as possible. Or you can give up like a pussy and throw your dignity and reason away for the sake of comforting fantasy. None of this requires delusion.

There are those of us who prefer a hard truth to an easy lie. The alternative is to fight.

And yet most people harbor delusions daily.

One may argue that anyone who has ever believed in religion believes in the "easy lie." Now, you may be right, and they may all be pussies, but it's also silly not to recognize that this is how most people deal with the world. Now throw a zombie apocalypse in there.

So the whole "man up" argument simply doesn't carry you far.

[Doc Jon]

They're free to come along if they feel they can carry their weight.

Your reasoning in this case STILL makes no sense. Why save people from one delusion only to see them perish from another? Or do you plan on saving everyone from every delusion because you just can't stand to see people have them? And if you really live that way in "real" life, then how do you get anything done considering that the world FUNCTIONS on delusions.