The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[BlueStreak]

Wolverine has the right of it. They may be an endangered species, but that's all the more reason to protect what they have, not put children at risk and make them go to war. Scott has been a major dick ever since the whole Utopia thing started.

The Avengers being dicks also doesn't have anything to do with Scott. The two can both be mega douches, and are, in this scenario.



Tell me how in the world it's a good idea for Scott to want the Phoenix to come to Earth? HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER THAN ANYONE WHY THAT IS A HORRIBLE IDEA - You're right! Instead, it's Cap and the Avengers trying to tell him how wrong it is.. that's completely backwards, and just shows how out of touch Cyke is. He's got tunnel vision, and doesn't care about the consequences of any of his actions.

Also.. the Helicarrier was cloaked. They were there for Cap's protection, which as Cyclops proved, was a smart choice. Cap did not attack Cyclops. He came to talk. Scott made the first move.

The only thing I disagree with is that Scott made the first move. Cap came onto his island, unannounced and uninvited and started making demands. If Utopia is a recgonized nation (a la Latveria), Cap had no business going about things this way. Had the Avengers shown up at Latveria, the world would be throwing a hissy fit (like they did in Secret Wars). The Helicarrier filled with Avengers showed (at least in my opinion) that Cap had no real intention of coming up with an actual solution to things.

Of course, if Cap had any real intention of coming up with a solution to things, this wouldn't be called Avengers vs. X-Men.

[Grayson]

The only fuckwad so far is Cyclops.

How so? By standing his ground when the Avengers came full force to the X-Men's home with an argument that amounted to "Gee Cyclops, I know that your wife, your girlfriend, your daughter, and some of your students have been possessed by the Phoenix plus you have faced the entity several times but we talked with Wolverine and feel that we are better suited to handle this situation. Plus, we missed all the Annihilations in space and feel left out but now we have a Nova and the threat of a cosmic threat so we've got this. Just hand over your granddaughter and we'll be on our way."

[SuperginraiX]

Cyclops will be the next Phoenix.

[Grayson]

Tell me how in the world it's a good idea for Scott to want the Phoenix to come to Earth? HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER THAN ANYONE WHY THAT IS A HORRIBLE IDEA - You're right! Instead, it's Cap and the Avengers trying to tell him how wrong it is.. that's completely backwards, and just shows how out of touch Cyke is. He's got tunnel vision, and doesn't care about the consequences of any of his actions.

I am not trying to say that Cyclops is right. He clearly does have tunnel vision in regards to the Phoenix but the Avengers have absolutely NO right to come to Utopia and demand that Cyclops turn over Hope to their custody. They are not the experts on the Phoenix just because they are the Avengers and they currently have Wolverine on their side. If they had any interest in resolving this situation peacefully then they should have attempted a better strategy then "Let's go to Utopia and demand that Cyclops turn over Hope with no better argument than we're right and you're wrong." It was absolutely never going to work and Captain America should have known that.

Also.. the Helicarrier was cloaked. They were there for Cap's protection, which as Cyclops proved, was a smart choice. Cap did not attack Cyclops. He came to talk. Scott made the first move.

True the Helicarrier was cloaked, I'll give you that. Cyclops couldn't see it or the Avengers that were standing on the deck. However, do you mean to tell me that Emma, the Cuckoos, or any of the other telepaths on that Island couldn't tell they were there? Plus, if there wasn't a Helicarrier there, then just how in the hell did Captain America come to be standing on their beach? Cyclops isn't stupid, he knew they were there.

Cyclops may have thrown the first punch but it was only after Captain America said that he wasn't asking him to turn Hope over. Come on, what are you going to do when somebody comes you and demands that you give him your granddaughter because he thinks that she is going to become the host for something you know better than he does? Cyclops may have physically attacked first but Captain America threw down the gauntlet first.

[GOSD]

How so? By standing his ground when the Avengers came full force to the X-Men's home with an argument that amounted to "Gee Cyclops, I know that your wife, your girlfriend, your daughter, and some of your students have been possessed by the Phoenix plus you have faced the entity several times but we talked with Wolverine and feel that we are better suited to handle this situation. Plus, we missed all the Annihilations in space and feel left out but now we have a Nova and the threat of a cosmic threat so we've got this. Just hand over your granddaughter and we'll be on our way."

By not listening to Cap at all ("It's a mutant issue. We'll handle it." /end of discussion) and attacking him. Cap's only heard Wolverine's side to the whole story and it didn't sound like Scott was giving him a choice.

By Scott attacking Cap, proved Logan right. Scott is unstable and acting every bit like Magneto. In Cap's eye's atleast.

Cap knows very little about the Phoenix, but as a soldier must analyze every situation and determine the best course for EVERYONE on the planet (not just the mutants).

Remember, Cable (Scott's son) just brutally attacked and almost killed some of the Avengers so Cap is justified a bit in being prepared for Cyclop's evenutal overreaction.

[Grayson]

By not listening to Cap at all ("It's a mutant issue. We'll handle it." /end of discussion) and attacking him. Cap's only heard Wolverine's side to the whole story and it didn't sound like Scott was giving him a choice.

It's not like Cap was really listening to Cyclops either. He certainly didn't go to Utopia to give Cyclops a choice of whether he wanted to hand Hope over or not. And like you said, Cap had only talked to Wolverine about it. You don't think that there's a chance that Wolverine (who has a history of holding grudges and making rash decisions) wouldn't be a little bias in his evaluation of a situation that involves the person he just had a massive falling out with and the entity that is interconnected with the love of his life?

By Scott attacking Cap, proved Logan right. Scott is unstable and acting every bit like Magneto. In Cap's eye's atleast.

He is unstable and acting like Magneto because when a human came to his home and demanded that he turn his granddaughter over to him, he defended her? I am not saying her is right in his assumption of what Hope represents but come on, the Avengers do not have any more right to demand he turn over Hope than he would have demanding that the Avengers turn over one of their own to him.

Cap knows very little about the Phoenix, but as a soldier must analyze every situation and determine the best course for EVERYONE on the planet (not just the mutants).

True but this is why it would have been better for Cap to have gone to Utopia with a small group of people like Tony Stark and Reed Richards and ASKED Cyclops to help them come up with a plan. Instead, he declared himself and the Avengers the final authority on the matter.

Remember, Cable (Scott's son) just brutally attacked and almost killed some of the Avengers so Cap is justified a bit in being prepared for Cyclop's evenutal overreaction.

Cap's short term memory has to be better than this though...this was the very thing that Cable attacked them for in the first place! Is Cap so blind that he can't see that events are going in a direction that might lead to Cable having been right? Once again, this was a time when talking should have been the most important. Both sides listening to each other. Instead, Cyops continued to be blind because they left him no other choice. It was either give us Hope or we will take her from you. No other choice.

[Timbales]

Nobody is right - not Cyclops, Wolverine or Cap.

[Punchy]

Nobody is right - not Cyclops, Wolverine or Cap.

Exactly, if one of them was definitively right, there wouldn't be a comic.

[IvCNuB4]

Remember the good old days when superhero teams got together, beat the crap out of each other, and got over it in ONE issue without needing teasers, Launch Parties, and summer-long cross-overs ?

[GOSD]

It's not like Cap was really listening to Cyclops either. He certainly didn't go to Utopia to give Cyclops a choice of whether he wanted to hand Hope over or not. And like you said, Cap had only talked to Wolverine about it. You don't think that there's a chance that Wolverine (who has a history of holding grudges and making rash decisions) wouldn't be a little bias in his evaluation of a situation that involves the person he just had a massive falling out with and the entity that is interconnected with the love of his life?



He is unstable and acting like Magneto because when a human came to his home and demanded that he turn his granddaughter over to him, he defended her? I am not saying her is right in his assumption of what Hope represents but come on, the Avengers do not have any more right to demand he turn over Hope than he would have demanding that the Avengers turn over one of their own to him.



True but this is why it would have been better for Cap to have gone to Utopia with a small group of people like Tony Stark and Reed Richards and ASKED Cyclops to help them come up with a plan. Instead, he declared himself and the Avengers the final authority on the matter.



Cap's short term memory has to be better than this though...this was the very thing that Cable attacked them for in the first place! Is Cap so blind that he can't see that events are going in a direction that might lead to Cable having been right? Once again, this was a time when talking should have been the most important. Both sides listening to each other. Instead, Cyops continued to be blind because they left him no other choice. It was either give us Hope or we will take her from you. No other choice.

Let's just get down to it.

You agree with Cyclops.

I agree with Cap.

Timbales likes the way Cap's ass jiggles.

We all win!

[SuperginraiX]

Remember the good old days when superhero teams got together, beat the crap out of each other, and got over it in ONE issue without needing teasers, Launch Parties, and summer-long cross-overs ?

Um... Avengers #53 was actually a crossover issue with the X-Men at the time... though the bulk of the action DID take place in Avengers.

And X-Men vs. Avengers was four issues!

Though none of these had launch parties or were massive mega-events. I get where you're coming from.

[ElijahSnowFan]

As I said, both sides are right in their own way, which, of course, means both sides have it wrong in some way. That's what makes this series so fascinating.

I loved Bendis' two-parter in the New Avengers/Avengers annuals this year when he used poor Simon Williams to break down the five worst things the Avengers have ever done. Now granted, Bendis wrote some of them, so it's not as if he didn't play a large role in making them the douches they are today, but at the same time, the two biggest ones are the ones the Avengers absolutely have to own:

Ultron and the freaking Hulk.

I understand completely that Bendis has his Ultron story done, and it's a labor of love. It's a big deal, and it should be. Hank Pym's one of my favorites and The Pimp-Slap Heard 'Round the World has long been worn out, but holy hell, what the eff was Pym thinking when he built that freaking thing?

Ultron is going to kill us all. He is! And the Avengers hang out playing poker while that freaking thing figures out newer and better ways to do it! Cyclops -- still the biggest douche of them all, in my book -- should've told Cap to turn that freaking helicarrier around with Hank Pym and Tony Stark on it and get back to him when Ultron's down for the count!

Same with the Hulk and to a lesser degree, the Sentry. You absolutely know that every single time Bruce Banner turns green, something's getting wrecked. You know that! But you let him run around for years, then you exile him, then he comes back and nearly kills you all! That dog was always gonna bite the hand that fed him!

And the Sentry -- holy hell. EVERYBODY knew that he was the Void! How do you let that guy run around doing his thing! Again, Bendis took that to the next level, but it wasn't like Paul Jenkins wasn't screaming from the rooftops that the Sentry clearly had issues!

That's why I love this series -- neither side has the moral high ground. You've got Emma Frost hanging out. You've got Namor hanging out. You've got Tony Stark, who to my way of thinking, has been the second-biggest douche in the 616 ever since he became Drunk Tony -- seriously, you have to go back and read some of those issues.

The only two guys who have always been consistent are Captain America and Magneto, because Magneto always told anyone who would listen that one day, the humans would come for them, just like they did that day. Magneto's always been right!

[Grayson]

Let's just get down to it.

You agree with Cyclops.

I agree with Cap.

Timbales likes the way Cap's ass jiggles.

We all win!

Lol, at this point I don't actually agree with Cyclops or Cap. I am just defending Cyclops actions in this first issue because he didn't really do anything wrong besides protecting his granddaughter.

As of right now, I actually agree with Emma. What does Hope have to say about all of this?

[chap22]

As I said, both sides are right in their own way, which, of course, means both sides have it wrong in some way. That's what makes this series so fascinating.

I loved Bendis' two-parter in the New Avengers/Avengers annuals this year when he used poor Simon Williams to break down the five worst things the Avengers have ever done. Now granted, Bendis wrote some of them, so it's not as if he didn't play a large role in making them the douches they are today, but at the same time, the two biggest ones are the ones the Avengers absolutely have to own:

Ultron and the freaking Hulk.

I understand completely that Bendis has his Ultron story done, and it's a labor of love. It's a big deal, and it should be. Hank Pym's one of my favorites and The Pimp-Slap Heard 'Round the World has long been worn out, but holy hell, what the eff was Pym thinking when he built that freaking thing?

Ultron is going to kill us all. He is! And the Avengers hang out playing poker while that freaking thing figures out newer and better ways to do it! Cyclops -- still the biggest douche of them all, in my book -- should've told Cap to turn that freaking helicarrier around with Hank Pym and Tony Stark on it and get back to him when Ultron's down for the count!

Same with the Hulk and to a lesser degree, the Sentry. You absolutely know that every single time Bruce Banner turns green, something's getting wrecked. You know that! But you let him run around for years, then you exile him, then he comes back and nearly kills you all! That dog was always gonna bite the hand that fed him!

And the Sentry -- holy hell. EVERYBODY knew that he was the Void! How do you let that guy run around doing his thing! Again, Bendis took that to the next level, but it wasn't like Paul Jenkins wasn't screaming from the rooftops that the Sentry clearly had issues!

That's why I love this series -- neither side has the moral high ground. You've got Emma Frost hanging out. You've got Namor hanging out. You've got Tony Stark, who to my way of thinking, has been the second-biggest douche in the 616 ever since he became Drunk Tony -- seriously, you have to go back and read some of those issues.

The only two guys who have always been consistent are Captain America and Magneto, because Magneto always told anyone who would listen that one day, the humans would come for them, just like they did that day. Magneto's always been right!

Well, sure, but if you're gonna hold the Avengers' collective feet to those fires, then you gotta go right back to the X-Men, and give them shit about that very guy you mention, Magneto. Then you give them shit about Sabretooth. Onslaught. Kid Apocalypse Who they got hanging out right now with Kid Gladiator and baby Brood and Quire. Archangel. Juggernaut. And on and on...

Let's not pretend that either team hasn't made some terrible, TERRIBLE decisions in the past.

[Chris]

As I said, both sides are right in their own way, which, of course, means both sides have it wrong in some way. That's what makes this series so fascinating.

I loved Bendis' two-parter in the New Avengers/Avengers annuals this year when he used poor Simon Williams to break down the five worst things the Avengers have ever done. Now granted, Bendis wrote some of them, so it's not as if he didn't play a large role in making them the douches they are today, but at the same time, the two biggest ones are the ones the Avengers absolutely have to own:

Ultron and the freaking Hulk.

I understand completely that Bendis has his Ultron story done, and it's a labor of love. It's a big deal, and it should be. Hank Pym's one of my favorites and The Pimp-Slap Heard 'Round the World has long been worn out, but holy hell, what the eff was Pym thinking when he built that freaking thing?

Ultron is going to kill us all. He is! And the Avengers hang out playing poker while that freaking thing figures out newer and better ways to do it! Cyclops -- still the biggest douche of them all, in my book -- should've told Cap to turn that freaking helicarrier around with Hank Pym and Tony Stark on it and get back to him when Ultron's down for the count!

Same with the Hulk and to a lesser degree, the Sentry. You absolutely know that every single time Bruce Banner turns green, something's getting wrecked. You know that! But you let him run around for years, then you exile him, then he comes back and nearly kills you all! That dog was always gonna bite the hand that fed him!

And the Sentry -- holy hell. EVERYBODY knew that he was the Void! How do you let that guy run around doing his thing! Again, Bendis took that to the next level, but it wasn't like Paul Jenkins wasn't screaming from the rooftops that the Sentry clearly had issues!

That's why I love this series -- neither side has the moral high ground. You've got Emma Frost hanging out. You've got Namor hanging out. You've got Tony Stark, who to my way of thinking, has been the second-biggest douche in the 616 ever since he became Drunk Tony -- seriously, you have to go back and read some of those issues.

The only two guys who have always been consistent are Captain America and Magneto, because Magneto always told anyone who would listen that one day, the humans would come for them, just like they did that day. Magneto's always been right!

Except if Magneto had his way, he would eradicate humanity in a heartbeat.