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[Juan Cena]

Only scratched the surface, I got tired and didn't feel like rivaling Strict for post length champion.

They'd probably never go for it since they, the powers that be at DC, can't seem to recognize what can really work. They've tossed out more good concepts then bad over the decades.

If I got the gig, I'd be having a reboot again, but the over all under lying plot would be to re-establish some of the old concepts and bring them into the present continuity. Create a playground filled with Easter Eggs fro old fans to come across, maybe scream about in anger . The big plot would be an exploration of not just the history of the DCU, but also the various big cosmic concepts. Ancient Atlantis, modern Atlantis, Maltus, The Oans, The Controllers, The New Gods, Lords of Order, Lords of Chaos, meta-genes, Hypertime and the Multiverse. It would all inter tie while also giving a variety of stories showcasing each of the Legionnaires and their home worlds. Establish the basics within the first year. After all that, it's growing it all further.

They'd tell me to go fuck myself. They want a fast buck and nothing too complex.
After all, they passed up on MightyGodKing....

I wouldn't go that far this time around. Just put the Legion timeline in a 5-yr period so that the members are younger than they are now, and in their teens-to-early 20's. No one older than Garth and Imra, for the most part. Keep the timeline as it went, for the most part, whit changes made to make it fit better with current Superman continuity.

Storywise, I wouldn't mess with DCU stuff too much, if you do a story on Rann, then Johns decides to blow Rann up, then you're screwed. I'd pretty much have it that the older worlds (Thanagar, Rann, the Vega system, etc.) pretty much mind their own business, and stay out of the way of the humanity and the "younger civilizations."

I'd have the Legion is stories that too a spin on various sci-fi and fantasy genres. You could have alien worlds or lost human colonies where technology kind of went backwards or sideways. Have the Legion come in contact with a world with Steampunk-style technology. Or where things are more post-apocalyptic, or more Wild West-like. Have aliens using "organic" tech like using "living" spaceships for space travel.

[Cat-Scratch]

I wouldn't go that far this time around. Just put the Legion timeline in a 5-yr period so that the members are younger than they are now, and in their teens-to-early 20's. No one older than Garth and Imra, for the most part. Keep the timeline as it went, for the most part, whit changes made to make it fit better with current Superman continuity.

Storywise, I wouldn't mess with DCU stuff too much, if you do a story on Rann, then Johns decides to blow Rann up, then you're screwed. I'd pretty much have it that the older worlds (Thanagar, Rann, the Vega system, etc.) pretty much mind their own business, and stay out of the way of the humanity and the "younger civilizations."

I'd have the Legion is stories that too a spin on various sci-fi and fantasy genres. You could have alien worlds or lost human colonies where technology kind of went backwards or sideways. Have the Legion come in contact with a world with Steampunk-style technology. Or where things are more post-apocalyptic, or more Wild West-like. Have aliens using "organic" tech like using "living" spaceships for space travel.

That's where we differ. I see no point in keeping them young when Dick Grayson and others have aged. Also, in the original continuity Mon-El was the oldest. So he would be again and due to his adventures to begin with back in the present. I wouldn't also keep it tied to tightly to Superman's continuity.

Again, we differ. The idea is to keep a link but also severe it. To explain one very glaring question concerning that era and addressing every possibility. Why is it that 1,000 years after Superman appears, does the Legion appear? No matter what happens? Time Trapper meddling? Yes and no. Glorith playing with the timeline? Yes and no. Also, keep in mind a thousand years is a long time period and more then enough to rebuild Rann or Thanagar or any world... or concept like the Green Lantern Corps. The idea is to explain it all while also fleshing out the DCU. Since they're running about the galaxy and meeting up with all these concepts... may as well play it all out with the explanation. No more avoiding, but clearly addressing it all. No matter what. It will be worked out to only affect the present if other creators want it too. In the end, as I said, it's to strengthen it and break the connection and explain why. Why do they always exist as does Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc...

Sort of agree. LoSH has always been adaptive of popular SF since the 60s. That should be reveled in and demonstrated, hence the big tour across it all. Demonstrate that in many ways, traveling around then is not much different then traveling around the world now. Things differ from place to place and also tend to be the same. It's both a bright wondrous future, while also being a rather dark and scary one.

[Juan Cena]

That's where we differ. I see no point in keeping them young when Dick Grayson and others have aged. Also, in the original continuity Mon-El was the oldest. So he would be again and due to his adventures to begin with back in the present. I wouldn't also keep it tied to tightly to Superman's continuity.

Do do realize that Dick Grayson got de-aged with the rest of the DCnU, don't you? I think either the writer or editor of Nightwing said he was around 21-23 now. Which is how old I'd have Garth and Imra be.

One of the factors you have to look at when trying to make the Legion work critically and (more importantly) financially is looking at the ages of the team. Let's face it, as the Legion got older, it sold less and less. DC's decision not to sell it outside of the comic shops probably did more damage, but the team getting closer and closer to their 30's didn't help either.



As for Superman, as long as DC has him being in the Legion, the ties to his continuity are going to be there. Maybe the best thing would be for the Legion to have the younger Clark Kent as a member, but that opens another can of worms.

Again, we differ. The idea is to keep a link but also severe it. To explain one very glaring question concerning that era and addressing every possibility. Why is it that 1,000 years after Superman appears, does the Legion appear? No matter what happens? Time Trapper meddling? Yes and no. Glorith playing with the timeline? Yes and no. Also, keep in mind a thousand years is a long time period and more then enough to rebuild Rann or Thanagar or any world... or concept like the Green Lantern Corps. The idea is to explain it all while also fleshing out the DCU. Since they're running about the galaxy and meeting up with all these concepts... may as well play it all out with the explanation. No more avoiding, but clearly addressing it all. No matter what. It will be worked out to only affect the present if other creators want it too. In the end, as I said, it's to strengthen it and break the connection and explain why. Why do they always exist as does Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc...

The Legion: Secret Origin suggested that the UP was only about 300 years old or so, and implied that contact with Earth's former colony worlds had been lost before that. You could imagine a massive crash of galactic civilization(s) where the loss of intergalactic spaceflight was the result for many planets. (See some of Jerry Pournelle's CoDominion/Empire of Man books for that idea, especially The Mote in God's Eye)

I'd rather not have the Legion too hamstrung with what's going on the the regular DCnU books, and vice versa. Or having to have to spend too much time in the (Legion) book to try to explain how planet x could still exist when it got destroyed in some 21st century-based event or another.

The Legion creators should be worried more with their own "toys" than what's going on with the other DC books and their "toys."

Sort of agree. LoSH has always been adaptive of popular SF since the 60s. That should be reveled in and demonstrated, hence the big tour across it all. Demonstrate that in many ways, traveling around then is not much different then traveling around the world now. Things differ from place to place and also tend to be the same. It's both a bright wondrous future, while also being a rather dark and scary one.

I'd rather see the Legion explore new worlds than deal with the "old" ones. Part of the book's charm was the concepts that came out of it, like flight rings or time bubbles. Legion creators should spend more time creating a future to make readers go "Wow!" like they did in the old days.

[Arion]

Portela is just uninspiring and dull.

What Legion really needs is an artist who draws in a more realistic way like Grell or Lightle or Kitson (or pre-vacation Giffen). That's usuallu when the book is at it's best.

Or Olivier Coipel.

[Cat-Scratch]

Do do realize that Dick Grayson got de-aged with the rest of the DCnU, don't you? I think either the writer or editor of Nightwing said he was around 21-23 now. Which is how old I'd have Garth and Imra be.

One of the factors you have to look at when trying to make the Legion work critically and (more importantly) financially is looking at the ages of the team. Let's face it, as the Legion got older, it sold less and less. DC's decision not to sell it outside of the comic shops probably did more damage, but the team getting closer and closer to their 30's didn't help either.

As for Superman, as long as DC has him being in the Legion, the ties to his continuity are going to be there. Maybe the best thing would be for the Legion to have the younger Clark Kent as a member, but that opens another can of worms.

Uh yeah, you seem to want to fix the ages to very specific ages. Also, again, Rokk has been described as older then Garth more then once now.

That's not true. Nor is it a factor except where folks like yourself fixate on the age. If anything, it's the other way around given that the 80s LoSH sold best, while the de-aged versions that followed failed. Marketing has no impact on what's being done within the pages as I described, so why bring that up?

No it doesn't open up a can of worms. They already gave an answer. Telepathic blocks. At worse, they have that in, but given how it's being kept in, it stays. The LoSH works better then not with a Superman connection and there are other ways to keep things working.

The Legion: Secret Origin suggested that the UP was only about 300 years old or so, and implied that contact with Earth's former colony worlds had been lost before that. You could imagine a massive crash of galactic civilization(s) where the loss of intergalactic spaceflight was the result for many planets. (See some of Jerry Pournelle's CoDominion/Empire of Man books for that idea, especially The Mote in God's Eye)

I'd rather not have the Legion too hamstrung with what's going on the the regular DCnU books, and vice versa. Or having to have to spend too much time in the (Legion) book to try to explain how planet x could still exist when it got destroyed in some 21st century-based event or another.

The Legion creators should be worried more with their own "toys" than what's going on with the other DC books and their "toys."

I don't care considering as I said, it's a reboot that would merge it all, not over focus on specifics like that. The date the UP came to be can be moved all over the place and has little to no impact. I just prefer there be some time to have the feel of various people of various races know each other well enough to get along. But not so ancient as to wonder why they don't get along better still. You know Mote is my fav sci-fi novel, and I'm familiar with that con. I just don't care for it. A collapse is great when you have a great time period (which is not here) and a single civilization (again, is not here given the various member worlds). Think Star Trek and Star Wars or Babylon 5 more.

It wouldn't be at all if I had my way. The main DC does what it wants, I'll do the rest and it would work. I have no problem doing that work.

I'd rather see the Legion explore new worlds than deal with the "old" ones. Part of the book's charm was the concepts that came out of it, like flight rings or time bubbles. Legion creators should spend more time creating a future to make readers go "Wow!" like they did in the old days.

Again, this is a perfect time, another reboot, to explore those worlds as they'll be shown, for the old fans AND the new fans to see for the first time. I disagree, the charm back then was that it was a club of teen aliens inspired to be like Superman when he was a boy. It grew from there and became literally a Legion of Super-Heroes as they demonstrated heroism and courage in the same ways the present day heroes did. BUT they did it at a time where the wow factor was common day. It was a group of teens going out and doing the super-hero stuff, not super powered folks doing what others could not. It's about valor. The creators just need to realize what a rich background they have to play in, but not drown the characters in it. Any comic runs not on kitch technology, but what really works are good stories with good characterization. The background gets lost as the reader focuses on the characters and the story. But like the Iron Man flicks, a little visual bling never hurts along the way.

Like I said, the future with the LoSH is a better place to explore the DCU in a cosmic and beyond sense. Might as well do it, have it fleshed out, use it as a hook and keep the readers there for the characters and good stories.

[Cat-Scratch]

Or Olivier Coipel.

Or some one new that can pull off what they all did when they were new.

[Juan Cena]

Or some one new that can pull off what they all did when they were new.

That being drawing a comic in such an amazing way that lots of people who weren't longtime Legion fans were buying Legion.

That and presenting a vision of the 31st century that actually looks and feels like it's the 31st century. There are times I can't sat that about the current book. It seems at times that the 21st century DCU has better tech than the 31st century DCU.

[Juan Cena]

It was referenced several times in the Pre-COIE days that Rokk was 14 when the Legion started. (Superboy #172 for one). I don't recall where it said that he was older than Garth, (especially in the Pre-COIE days)

If you were wanting to tweak things where Legion continuity happened in a shorter time span than what the current team's timeframe is without a buttload of tewaks, then you might want Garth older than Rokk, so you could have him and Imra be married with kids without it being an episode of "Teen Mom."




The fact that the de-aged versions dumped all of "Classic" Legion continuity didn't help either. We've both been around long enough to know all the b!tching and moaning about that, with fans wanting the "real" team back.

And recall, it was the early 80's Legion that was the bestseller. Sales plunged in the mid-to-late 80's. (And this was before FYG). It was around that time that the team was "growing up" more.

If you want look to seriously the Legion to work, you have to go and look back at the things that happened that caused it not to work (and by work, I mean sell comics), and fix them. And letting the team get older didn't work out too well.



I was thinking more about how the Legion's timeline was synched up with Clark's. At some point, he has to grow up to become Superman. That's always been the elephant in the room. Sooner or later, Clark grows up.

It was getting a little bit awkward back in the day when the Legionaries were all aging past the high school (and possibly college) years, but Clark was still in his teens. The best solution would be to have modern-day Supes interact with the "current" Legion.



I don't care considering as I said, it's a reboot that would merge it all, not over focus on specifics like that. The date the UP came to be can be moved all over the place and has little to no impact. I just prefer there be some time to have the feel of various people of various races know each other well enough to get along. But not so ancient as to wonder why they don't get along better still. You know Mote is my fav sci-fi novel, and I'm familiar with that con. I just don't care for it. A collapse is great when you have a great time period (which is not here) and a single civilization (again, is not here given the various member worlds). Think Star Trek and Star Wars or Babylon 5 more.

Actually, Mote happens in the about the same time period as Legion, IIRC. The CoDominion/Empire of Man rose, collapsed, and was reborn a few centuries later, all in around a 1,000 or so year period. Something like that in the Legion's timeline might be prefect to explain why things don't seem as so advanced technologically as you would think they would be. Take out the space travel and futuristic buildings, and the Legion's 31st century tech doesn't seem to have advanced that much farther that 21st Century DCU tech.

I just want to have Legion in something a little more than a generic Sci-Fi background.

It wouldn't be at all if I had my way. The main DC does what it wants, I'll do the rest and it would work. I have no problem doing that work.

So do I. The best way to do that is to to leave the "future" of the 21st century DCU to those writers, and just deal with the worlds and aliens that were created for the Legion (Like the Khunds and Resource Raiders or the Sorcerer's World, etc.), and create new ones.

I'd rather see the Legion explore new worlds than deal with the "old" ones. Part of the book's charm was the concepts that came out of it, like flight rings or time bubbles. Legion creators should spend more time creating a future to make readers go "Wow!" like they did in the old days.

Again, this is a perfect time, another reboot, to explore those worlds as they'll be shown, for the old fans AND the new fans to see for the first time. I disagree, the charm back then was that it was a club of teen aliens inspired to be like Superman when he was a boy. It grew from there and became literally a Legion of Super-Heroes as they demonstrated heroism and courage in the same ways the present day heroes did. BUT they did it at a time where the wow factor was common day. It was a group of teens going out and doing the super-hero stuff, not super powered folks doing what others could not. It's about valor. The creators just need to realize what a rich background they have to play in, but not drown the characters in it. Any comic runs not on kitch technology, but what really works are good stories with good characterization. The background gets lost as the reader focuses on the characters and the story. But like the Iron Man flicks, a little visual bling never hurts along the way.

Like I said, the future with the LoSH is a better place to explore the DCU in a cosmic and beyond sense. Might as well do it, have it fleshed out, use it as a hook and keep the readers there for the characters and good stories.[/quote]



Yes, you have to focus on the characters. But in the end, it's a super-hero book, and you do have to put the team do super-hero stuff.

The "Wow" factor might be common to the Legion, but it still needs to be amazing enough to knock the reader's socks off. Look at Planetary. Ellis and Cassady took common SF and comic book concepts, and amped the "Wow" factor up by eleven (RIght, Elijah Snow Fan?) And oh yeah, it had great storytelling and characterization too.

Same with FF. Stan and Jack mixed the everyday lives of the FF with all some of the most amazing concepts like Galactus and the Inhumans. And they told stories that merged the two together in an intriguing way (like Johnny and Crystal's star-crossed love) that kept readers interested on both levels.

You gotta do the stuff that keeps the customers coming back for more. Sadly, Levitz and the current book isn't doing that right now.

[Arion]

Or some one new that can pull off what they all did when they were new.

Someone like me, you mean? Thanks, I feel quite flattered.

[Juan Cena]

And the downward spiral continues.

98 - THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES
02/2007: Supergirl & LoSH #27 -- 31,387
02/2008: Supergirl & LoSH #39 -- 31,123
---------------------------------------
02/2011: LoSH #10 -- 23,738 (- 2.0%)
03/2011: LoSH #11 -- 23,667 (- 0.3%)
04/2011: LoSH #12 -- 23,419 (- 1.1%)
05/2011: LoSH #13 -- 23,105 (- 1.3%)
06/2011: LoSH #14 -- 22,600 (- 2.2%)
07/2011: LoSH #15 -- 21,788 (- 3.6%)
08/2011: LoSH #16 -- 21,373 (- 1.9%)
09/2011: LoSH #1 -- 50,402 (+135.8%) [58,325]
10/2011: LoSH #2 -- 47,227 (- 6.3%)
11/2011: LoSH #3 -- 34,979 (- 25.9%)
12/2011: LoSH #4 -- 27,832 (- 20.4%)
01/2012: LoSH #5 -- 25,624 (- 7.9%)
02/2012: LoSH #6 -- 23,428 (- 8.6%)
-----------------
6 months: + 9.6%
1 year : - 1.3%
5 years : - 25.4%

http://www.comicsbeat.com/2012/04/09/dc-comics-month-to-month-sales-february-2012/

I think we can honestly start calling the "return" of the "classic" Legion a flop here.

[Arion]

And the downward spiral continues.


http://www.comicsbeat.com/2012/04/09/dc-comics-month-to-month-sales-february-2012/

I think we can honestly start calling the "return" of the "classic" Legion a flop here.

The Legion can't be a flop again or we'll have to change the title of this thread. Oh wait, that won't be necessary.

[IvCNuB4]

[Arion]

Actually, Mote happens in the about the same time period as Legion, IIRC. The CoDominion/Empire of Man rose, collapsed, and was reborn a few centuries later, all in around a 1,000 or so year period. Something like that in the Legion's timeline might be prefect to explain why things don't seem as so advanced technologically as you would think they would be. Take out the space travel and futuristic buildings, and the Legion's 31st century tech doesn't seem to have advanced that much farther that 21st Century DCU tech.

I just want to have Legion in something a little more than a generic Sci-Fi background.



So do I. The best way to do that is to to leave the "future" of the 21st century DCU to those writers, and just deal with the worlds and aliens that were created for the Legion (Like the Khunds and Resource Raiders or the Sorcerer's World, etc.), and create new ones.



Again, this is a perfect time, another reboot, to explore those worlds as they'll be shown, for the old fans AND the new fans to see for the first time. I disagree, the charm back then was that it was a club of teen aliens inspired to be like Superman when he was a boy. It grew from there and became literally a Legion of Super-Heroes as they demonstrated heroism and courage in the same ways the present day heroes did. BUT they did it at a time where the wow factor was common day. It was a group of teens going out and doing the super-hero stuff, not super powered folks doing what others could not. It's about valor. The creators just need to realize what a rich background they have to play in, but not drown the characters in it. Any comic runs not on kitch technology, but what really works are good stories with good characterization. The background gets lost as the reader focuses on the characters and the story. But like the Iron Man flicks, a little visual bling never hurts along the way.

Like I said, the future with the LoSH is a better place to explore the DCU in a cosmic and beyond sense. Might as well do it, have it fleshed out, use it as a hook and keep the readers there for the characters and good stories.

Yes, you have to focus on the characters. But in the end, it's a super-hero book, and you do have to put the team do super-hero stuff.

The "Wow" factor might be common to the Legion, but it still needs to be amazing enough to knock the reader's socks off. Look at Planetary. Ellis and Cassady took common SF and comic book concepts, and amped the "Wow" factor up by eleven (RIght, Elijah Snow Fan?) And oh yeah, it had great storytelling and characterization too.

Same with FF. Stan and Jack mixed the everyday lives of the FF with all some of the most amazing concepts like Galactus and the Inhumans. And they told stories that merged the two together in an intriguing way (like Johnny and Crystal's star-crossed love) that kept readers interested on both levels.

You gotta do the stuff that keeps the customers coming back for more. Sadly, Levitz and the current book isn't doing that right now.

In other words, we just need to get a creative team as good as Ellis and Cassaday to fix the Legion.

Not an easy task, I'd say.

[Juan Cena]

In other words, we just need to get a creative team as good as Ellis and Cassaday to fix the Legion.

Not an easy task, I'd say.

Even a creative a third as talented as Ellis and Cassady would be an improvement right now.

[Juan Cena]

The Legion can't be a flop again or we'll have to change the title of this thread. Oh wait, that won't be necessary.

Any punch from the "New 52" has been long gone for months. I can see sales going under 20,000 within six months.

The entire "reintroduction" of the "classic" team has been a bust. (Unless you count the Johns stuff, which is part of the underlying reason the neo-classic team's been a bust in the first place.)