The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

by **Victorian Squid** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:07 pm

alaska1125 wrote:A message for all those ideologically opposed to this project: don't buy it. It's really just that easy.

That would seem to go without saying, but not preclude discussing the marketing and publicity being done at this very moment, or the IP issues beyond Pre-Watchmen or whatever it's being called.

And to Arion, where did that Tim Pilcher article come from??

by **Ntikrst** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:17 pm

Amoebas wrote:Siegle, Shuster, Kirby, etc were all screwed over because they were in a day and age where nobody knew better (and in many cases were taken advantage of by their companies). This is not the case with Alan Moore. He signed a good and fair contract.

That Watchmen ended up being the best selling graphic novel of all over the decades is a testament to how good a story he crafted. That DC continues to publish it (as the contract allows) is their right.

What a load of horseshit, you should be ashamed of yourself for being so ignorant about the issue at hand.

Punchy wrote:
Did he? He signed a contract before there was really any notion of single-issue comics being collected into graphic novels and being sold in perpetuity. He would never have been able to know that Watchmen would never go out of print and not have the rights revert to him.

Exactly, the TBP format exists today specifically because DC wanted to use it as a Loophole to FUCK Moore and Gibbons. The only trade they agreed to was a HC limited edition. Watchmen is so popular because it's relentlessly solicited, made available in book stores as legitimate literature. If you buy anything from DC comics that involved Alan Moore, like V for Vendetta, or Saga of the Swamp Thing his name is prefixed by some kind of accolade that usually reads "from the award-winning writer of Watchmen."

The most repugnant tidbit is, Watchmen doesn't even sell that well. It averaged 20-40,000 copies a year before the movie came out, more now that DC is built upon the hollywood hype. Any interest in Watchmen is generated by DC's marketing campaign, their claims that they're only meeting demand are fiction. They have always manufactured demand to rationalize screwing Moore and Gibbons.

Here's the thing about Moore complaining that people don't get. If he tried to take DC to court, not only would he go broke because the case would get dragged out forever, Moore wouldn't be allowed to discuss any aspects of the case publicly. He'd never get justice, and the issue of creator rights would fall down the memory hole. His only shot at exposing the truth is discussing it whenever people show interest in his position.

I was going to give Minutemen a shot because it seemed like the only prequel whose fate wasn't totally fleshed out. But then JMS had to open his fat stupid mouth and remind me what a fucking retard he is. What should I expect from the mind of Babylon 5, Earth One Superwah and Grounded. I refuse to support anything that is even remotely affiliated with that rotund buffoon.

Sorry Cooke, your comic may well turn out like pumpkin pie but I won't ever know because you work with that filthy motherfucker.

by **Amoebas** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:18 pm

Punchy wrote:
Why the hell are you on DC's side so heavily here? Are you the sceptical fan?

No. I'm just not rabidly anti-DC like a number of Outhousers are.

I'm not upset that that these books are coming out - in fact I'm quite looking forward to them. I love the characters and ever since 1986, while I haven't 'needed' more, I sure have 'wanted' more. That I'm getting this by some high caliber creators is just fine by me.

If thinking the way I do about these Watchmen tales is a crime, I'm proudly guilty on all counts.

by **GHERU** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:40 pm

Ntikrst wrote:
What a load of horseshit, you should be ashamed of yourself for being so ignorant about the issue at hand.

Exactly, the TBP format exists today specifically because DC wanted to use it as a Loophole to FUCK Moore and Gibbons. The only trade they agreed to was a HC limited edition. Watchmen is so popular because it's relentlessly solicited, made available in book stores as legitimate literature. If you buy anything from DC comics that involved Alan Moore, like V for Vendetta, or Saga of the Swamp Thing his name is prefixed by some kind of accolade that usually reads "from the award-winning writer of Watchmen."

I didn't know DC was in the business of fucking over two creators, I thought they were in the business to make money

I also hate it when movie companies say things like "staring academy award winning actor Kevin Spacey" - what are they trying to do, get me to pay money for their product? What dicks!

The most repugnant tidbit is, Watchmen doesn't even sell that well. It averaged 20-40,000 copies a year before the movie came out, more now that DC is built upon the hollywood hype. Any interest in Watchmen is generated by DC's marketing campaign, their claims that they're only meeting demand are fiction. They have always manufactured demand to rationalize screwing Moore and Gibbons.

are there other trades that for 20+ years have sold more than 20-40k per year?
"manufactured demand" sounds a lot like "good marketing"

Here's the thing about Moore complaining that people don't get. If he tried to take DC to court, not only would he go broke because the case would get dragged out forever, Moore wouldn't be allowed to discuss any aspects of the case publicly. He'd never get justice, and the issue of creator rights would fall down the memory hole. His only shot at exposing the truth is discussing it whenever people show interest in his position.

don't forget the whole contract issue, that would be another reason he might not want to go to court

I was going to give Minutemen a shot because it seemed like the only prequel whose fate wasn't totally fleshed out. But then JMS had to open his fat stupid mouth and remind me what a fucking retard he is.

I agree, I was going to give the New Moore book - well, new to me - Necromonican a shot until he opened his ignorant mouth and spewed his own brand of hypocrisy.

What should I expect from the mind of Babylon 5, Earth One Superwah and Grounded. I refuse to support anything that is even remotely affiliated with that rotund buffoon.

very good things

Sorry Cooke, your comic may well turn out like pumpkin pie but I won't ever know because you work with that filthy motherfucker.

wow, not picking up a book because you don't like his co-worker - that there is some major "taking a stance."
is it just Cooke you won't read because of JMS or all of DC?

by **alaska1125** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:45 pm

GHERU wrote:I didn't know DC was in the business of fucking over two creators, I thought they were in the business to make money

I also hate it when movie companies say things like "staring academy award winning actor Kevin Spacey" - what are they trying to do, get me to pay money for their product? What dicks!

Hahaha!!! I know, right? Bastards, all of them!

by **Victorian Squid** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:47 pm

I'll be curious to see what the reaction to these in the actual stores are, how heavily they are ordered, how much demand there is on the street, if they will get snapped up like the New 52 or not, etc

by **Punchy** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:41 pm

alaska1125 wrote:A message for all those ideologically opposed to this project: don't buy it. It's really just that easy.

I'm not going to buy it. But that doesn't mean I can't talk about it.

by **Punchy** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:46 pm

Amoebas wrote:
No. I'm just not rabidly anti-DC like a number of Outhousers are.

I'm not upset that that these books are coming out - in fact I'm quite looking forward to them. I love the characters and ever since 1986, while I haven't 'needed' more, I sure have 'wanted' more. That I'm getting this by some high caliber creators is just fine by me.

If thinking the way I do about these Watchmen tales is a crime, I'm proudly guilty on all counts.

I'm not rabidly anti-DC, I'm rabidly anti-Before Watchmen.

by **Victorian Squid** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:49 pm

I will buy them only if they can be resold for at least 3x cover price the same week.

Otherwise, no.

by **fieldy snuts** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:16 pm

Amoebas wrote:
Agreed. Glad this wasn't simply hype or a scam but rather a genuine platform for Dan and company to proudly present their points and product.
Actual creativity takes bright ideas and thinking, glad that DC has some great creators lined up for this project.

Someone needs to find out who this "skeptical fan" was.
I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't "skeptical" anymore.

I'd stop being skeptical too if I was a fan who got offered $$$'s by Dan and the gang to give thumbs up to Before Watchmen.

That practically screamed "planted audience member" to me.

by **nietoperz** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:27 am

I buy three times as many DC books as I do Marvel ones, so I'm not exactly rabidly-anti-DC myself. And I don't really agree with Moore, either. I'm still not a fan of this idea.

by **Timbales** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:35 am

I'm totally on board with Minutemen and Silk Spectre.

Possibly with Dr. Manhattan as well, if Hughes does draw his penis enormous.

by **Rockman** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:16 am

If Amoebas is on board, the guy who hasn't liked the Avengers since 1965, then I imagine it's not the hugest tragedy ever.

by **Rockman** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:19 am

I don't really get the argument

"this didn't need to be told"

so what?

The Hobbit did need to told, the LoTR was fine without it. But it was, and it was awesome. And in a way actually adds a bit to the story.

I mean if the idea is there, and it's good then go ahead. I know DC is just trying to make money, which is their purpose for existing, but that simple purpose has produced some quality products in the past.

by **Punchy** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:44 am

Rockman wrote:I don't really get the argument

"this didn't need to be told"

so what?

The Hobbit did need to told, the LoTR was fine without it. But it was, and it was awesome. And in a way actually adds a bit to the story.

I mean if the idea is there, and it's good then go ahead. I know DC is just trying to make money, which is their purpose for existing, but that simple purpose has produced some quality products in the past.

The Hobbit was released before Lord Of The Rings.