The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

by **S.F. Jude Terror** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:10 pm

The phenomenon is not strictly a comics thing. You see the same attitude with movie and music snobs too, of course, or art snobs, wine snobs, pizzq snobs, British television snobs, Apple product snobs, coffee snobs, clothes snobs, Indie pro wrestling snobs, beer snobs, message board snobs, people from New York City... do you see where I'm going with this? Everyone does it to some degree about something. Part of it comes from some degree of truth. Something produced to appeal to a broad range of people is frequently blander, less creative, safer, and less interesting than something produced solely motivated by creativity, for various reasons, most notably the corporate need to make as much money as possible by being inoffensive to anyone with money to buy a product and the attempt to appeal to the lowest common denominator, necessarily including people with the least sophistication in taste. The other part of it comes from pure pretense, and I think anyone who follows the path of snobbery will eventually cross over into that, some sooner than later.

by **HNutz** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:11 pm

The Bass wrote:
If I was an editor at Marvel or DC, and a creator gave an interview saying something to the effect of "I'm saving my best stuff for my creator owed book", I'd fire him as soon as humanly possible. I don't half ass it in the shop so I can go home an alphabetise my comics.

Jubilee wrote:
Why should comic companies expect the best stuff from the writers when they're given crappy hand me downs and ridiculous limitations?

Why should readers expect great stuff from a writer doing his own thing when he writes meodicre stuff for the Big Two? I understand being more motivated and invested in creator owned stuff but if he gets more publicity from writing for Marvel or DC, it shouldn't suck.

It'd be like someone writing like Chuck Austen for Marvel and expecting them to write like Grant Morrison on his own stuff.

by **The Bass** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:13 pm

Jubilee wrote:
Believe me, a lot more writers dream of creating their own characters than working for Marvel.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I think a writer can do BOTH, but if I was working, I'd prefer to be esxtablished at Marvel or before trying to release something of my own. Thats my biggest issue with Kirkman, with his ridiculous statement that Image creators can make millions. They can't if their total unknowns. Not to mention Image only publicise books if you're friends with Kirkman or Erik Larsen

by **BlueStreak** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:22 pm

The Bass wrote:
If I was an editor at Marvel or DC, and a creator gave an interview saying something to the effect of "I'm saving my best stuff for my creator owed book", I'd fire him as soon as humanly possible. I don't half ass it in the shop so I can go home an alphabetise my comics.

I'm not saying that "they didn't give it their all", I'm saying that there are projects that you're basically told to script an plot that was decided on by an editorial team (like Battle Scars) and there are books that they actually get to plot themselves.

Website · by **prozacman** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:25 pm

Having gone to a fine art school I had to deal with this mentality every school day on a massive scale. A lot of people there looked down upon any thing that could be sold out side of an art gallery to people other than art snobs. Even most of what we wold consider indi to them would be be "commercial". I actually had one teacher on one of my review boards that wanted to withhold credits from me because she didn't think I should have been taking the computer animation classes I was paying for.

by **ReturnoftheMack** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:18 pm

Finding a good indy comic is like finding a well-drawn foot in a Rob Liefeld comic, it's out there somewhere, but it takes work to locate it.

I hate when people love indy shit that was printed at Kinko's on notebook paper.

by **TheLurker** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:41 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:The phenomenon is not strictly a comics thing. You see the same attitude with movie and music snobs too, of course, or art snobs, wine snobs, pizzq snobs, British television snobs, Apple product snobs, coffee snobs, clothes snobs, Indie pro wrestling snobs, beer snobs, message board snobs, people from New York City... do you see where I'm going with this? Everyone does it to some degree about something. Part of it comes from some degree of truth. Something produced to appeal to a broad range of people is frequently blander, less creative, safer, and less interesting than something produced solely motivated by creativity, for various reasons, most notably the corporate need to make as much money as possible by being inoffensive to anyone with money to buy a product and the attempt to appeal to the lowest common denominator, necessarily including people with the least sophistication in taste. The other part of it comes from pure pretense, and I think anyone who follows the path of snobbery will eventually cross over into that, some sooner than later.

This.
It is like politics here in the U.S. Some of the "snobs" can see only one viewpoint, Republican or Democrat. They can not even dream that a politician from the other side might have a good idea. And music. I knew a guy in college that would brag about all the small bands he knew about. In his mind, apparently, only bands that have "sold out" play for more than 100 people at a time. Therefore, nothing on the radio is good.

"Finding a good indy comic is like finding a well-drawn foot in a Rob Liefeld comic, it's out there somewhere, but it takes work to locate it."
See, this is what it was like when I was growing up. I would get 90% Marvel, 9% DC. Then occasionally I would try an Indy comic. But there were so many problems with the Indies that it was frustrating. Sometimes the title would get cancelled after three issues. Sometimes the company would suddenly go bankrupt. The LCS wouldn't order enough every month. Some creators would have a good idea for 6-8 issues, then the title would turn to crap. Then dealing with the snobs was the worst. "oh, your buying Thundercunts of Mars #12? I've been getting it since the beginning." Yeah, fuck you. I will go buy Spider-Man just to piss you off.

by **LobsterJ** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:20 pm

The Bass wrote:.so he takes potshots at them every two minutes his his little Spider-man fanfic book that now conveniently has a black lead

The guy "failed" at Marvel and now makes more money than anyone there. Seemed to have worked out for him.

As for the black Invincible, that was announced months before the black Ultimate Spider-man.

by **The Bass** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:10 pm

LobsterJ wrote:
The guy "failed" at Marvel and now makes more money than anyone there. Seemed to have worked out for him.

As for the black Invincible, that was announced months before the black Ultimate Spider-man.

Kirkman made money by selling the rights everything. Not everyone at Image makes money - the guys who made Green Wake packed it in because the book failed, so did the guys who did Jersey Gods, get Kirkman has pushed this notion if you abandon work for hire, you'll become a billionaire

by **Timbales** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:13 pm

All work is commercial work.

by **GHERU** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:33 pm

not reading something just because its an indy book is just as stupid as not reading something just because its a Marvel or DC book

by **GHERU** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:34 pm

The Bass wrote:
Kirkman made money by selling the rights everything. Not everyone at Image makes money - the guys who made Green Wake packed it in because the book failed, so did the guys who did Jersey Gods, get Kirkman has pushed this notion if you abandon work for hire, you'll become a billionaire

no he didn't
you keep pushing the notion that he said that

by **Jubilee** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:36 pm

If you had to list the most important aspects of a story

Id say:

Pacing
Beginning middle and conclusion
Character growth

Marvel offers me none of these

by **Punchy** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:39 pm

Jubilee wrote:If you had to list the most important aspects of a story

Id say:

Pacing
Beginning middle and conclusion
Character growth

Marvel offers me none of these

There's no pacing in a Marvel comic?

by **Jubilee** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:42 pm

Punchy wrote:
There's no pacing in a Marvel comic?

I feel like creators are shoe horned into writing a certain issue arc. Without knowing how long they're on a book or how long to plan for.

Nothing marvel or DC have ever produced comes close to Watchmen, Peeacher, 100 Bullets etc. but it'd be unfair on the creators to expect that.