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[ElijahSnowFan]

First, as always, give credit where it's due. The link/quote is from Newsarama's article/interview with Mark Waid about Irredeemable, by Zack Smith:
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/mark-wa ... ap-up.html

But for years and years, I've written long posts about the dire straits of superheroes, particularly at DC Comics, and even though the posts have been long, I've never felt that I said it the way I meant to say it, explained just how horrifying the depths of the decisions that have been made in this industry.

But here's what Waid said at the end of the article:

I think what I meant to say was – when it comes to superheroes, I can’t be cynical. I can’t write a cynical superhero story. I don’t believe that superheroes are a cynical construct. I don’t believe that by nature, superheroes are anything but a symbol of hope and inspiration.

And so to write a cynical story about them either takes an enormous amount of skill that I don’t have, or it belies the very nature of what that genre’s all about.

It's that simple, folks.

That's why some of the things that companies have done, DC especially, are just so damn horrifying.

I'm not the guy who absolutely refuses to change, ever. I like comics of all different styles, and I'm not married to one character over another -- if you tell a good story that transitions from one character to another.

I am absolutely not some guy who demands that mainstream comics at the Big Two be one way and one way only...

Unless the way you want to be is cynical.

Because when they do that -- and they have tried and tried and tried, since Dark Knight Returns and the ridiculous Bigger Guns, More Pouches 90s through Sue Dibny's rape to Roy Harper's kid getting killed and his arm torn off -- then that's when superhero comics in the mainstream are absolute garbage.

I repeat: ABSOLUTE GARBAGE.

It's not rocket science why, either: It's the shared universe(s).

There's been an interesting back-and-forth for years between Punch and Nacireman about Superman, and believe it or not, I squarely back Nacireman on this, and it's the biggest example of why I despise cynical comics so much.

Nacireman despairs about how Superman is always the idiot, never the man of action, always the punch line in the joke.

It says something about storytelling, about the collective lack of ability of writers today to tell Superman stories where he isn't an idiot and he isn't the first guy off the board when shit goes down.

In Waid's Irredeemable, the Superman analog FUCKED UP THE ENTIRE PLANET. Why? BECAUSE HE WAS THE BADDEST DAMN DUDE ON THE PLANET, THAT'S WHY.

Why can't Superman be that guy, except on the side of the angels? Because collective creator cynicism doesn't allow them to believe that Superman is that powerful AND that good. So they dumb it down so clowns like the Prankster can "match wits with the Man of Steel," and readers are forced to see Superman cry. Look at my sig. Just look at it.

Why did the Authority and Wildcats struggle so much over the years, after initial success? It's because the characters were, as Waid termed it, "cynical constructs." They have a shelf life. You can't tell me that Warren Ellis intended for Apollo to be blowing people's heads off with heat vision 15 years after he created him. I absolutely do not believe that to be true.

Deathstroke and Prometheus? Clown characters. Cynical constructs who should NEVER have been around as long as they are. Deathstroke isn't "bad ass." Deathstroke's the bad guy. Only in a cynical company that has/had completely lost its way, like DC has, would a clown character like Deathstroke front multiple books.

Mark Waid has it right. He told the tale of Irredeemable to show what bad guys do, just like he and Alex Ross created Magog nearly 15 years ago to show the idiocy of the Grim-and-Gritty Era in mainstream comics.

The problem? Too many writers clearly think they have, as Waid termed it, "enormous skill that I don't have."

They don't. Look at that list that Zechs compiled. Again, just look at it.

Only a company in the death-grip of editors and hacks would have allowed even a few of those things to occur in a shared universe, let alone all of them.

[john lewis hawk]

I empathetically disagree with you and Waid. And for that matter, I disagree with anyone who thinks the exact opposite.

[Dragavon]

Why can't Superman be that guy, except on the side of the angels? Because collective creator cynicism doesn't allow them to believe that Superman is that powerful AND that good. So they dumb it down so clowns like the Prankster can "match wits with the Man of Steel," and readers are forced to see Superman cry.

I agree with a lot of what you and Mark Waid are saying but the above I cannot agree with, and here's why.

Prior to Marvel, comics were about two-dimensional characters who saved the world/city/damsel-in-distress and then had a good laugh about it. Marvel changed the paradigm by introducing characters with actual personalities. Spider-Man had guilt, Hulk had anger issues, the X-Men were persecuted, etc, etc.

When you have a character like Superman who doesn't have a flaw and who's only weakness is Kryptonite (and magic), that character is boring and pointless. That is the comic fit only for kids (and young kids at that since older kids realize the inherent flaw even if they don't realize that they do.). Superman should be like any other guy, he tries hard but there should be days he has his doubts and fears otherwise he's just an unrelateable alien. The last time Superman was interesting? The movie 1978 when Clark Kent was a schnook who was dismissed by Lois.

[ElijahSnowFan]

I empathetically disagree with you and Waid. And for that matter, I disagree with anyone who thinks the exact opposite.

Oh, yeah?!?! Well, I emphatically disagree with you!!

[ElijahSnowFan]

I agree with a lot of what you and Mark Waid are saying but the above I cannot agree with, and here's why.

Prior to Marvel, comics were about two-dimensional characters who saved the world/city/damsel-in-distress and then had a good laugh about it. Marvel changed the paradigm by introducing characters with actual personalities. Spider-Man had guilt, Hulk had anger issues, the X-Men were persecuted, etc, etc.

When you have a character like Superman who doesn't have a flaw and who's only weakness is Kryptonite (and magic), that character is boring and pointless. That is the comic fit only for kids (and young kids at that since older kids realize the inherent flaw even if they don't realize that they do.). Superman should be like any other guy, he tries hard but there should be days he has his doubts and fears otherwise he's just an unrelateable alien. The last time Superman was interesting? The movie 1978 when Clark Kent was a schnook who was dismissed by Lois.

Where you and I deviate is the consideration of Superman as "an unrelatable alien."

For me, while I realize the guy was born on Krypton, he's from Kansas, as far as I'm concerned. I understand doubts and fears. I don't understand being defined by them, as he is too often.

The characters I can't relate to are, like, The Joker. Deathstroke. Black Adam. Killers who might as well be aliens, for how I view the world.

[chap22]

For all your mentions of Irredeemable and Supes just in that one post, ESF, if you haven't already, you REALLY need to check out this week's final issue of Irredeemable. Waid has crafted something special, and his love for the genre and it's original progenitor really shows, bringing hope and joy and faith all to the forefront, even in what is easily his darkest book ever. I think it's genius.

[Dragavon]

Where you and I deviate is the consideration of Superman as "an unrelatable alien."

For me, while I realize the guy was born on Krypton, he's from Kansas, as far as I'm concerned. I understand doubts and fears. I don't understand being defined by them, as he is too often.

The characters I can't relate to are, like, The Joker. Deathstroke. Black Adam. Killers who might as well be aliens, for how I view the world.

I'm not talking about Kansas vs. Krypton. I'm talking about somebody who's so far from a normal person's worldview that he is an alien. A normal person has to worry about his job, his family and a myriad of other problems. Prior to the reboot, what was Superman's problem? That he had to face off against people trying to kill him. He didn't have to worry about his job because conveniently his job entailed being in the thick of the action. He didn't have to worry about his family because his wife knew his secret identity and could cover for him. He literally did not have anything in common with most of his readers.

[chap22]

I'm not talking about Kansas vs. Krypton. I'm talking about somebody who's so far from a normal person's worldview that he is an alien. A normal person has to worry about his job, his family and a myriad of other problems. Prior to the reboot, what was Superman's problem? That he had to face off against people trying to kill him. He didn't have to worry about his job because conveniently his job entailed being in the thick of the action. He didn't have to worry about his family because his wife knew his secret identity and could cover for him. He literally did not have anything in common with most of his readers.

You're not paying attention to the real core of who he is then. Supes is an outsider, who always feels deep down like he doesn't truly fit in. I'd say that he has that in common with a very large percentage of his readers.

[Dragavon]

You're not paying attention to the real core of who he is then. Supes is an outsider, who always feels deep down like he doesn't truly fit in. I'd say that he has that in common with a very large percentage of his readers.

I agree that's the core of who he is. Very few writers are able to convey that aspect of Superman. I tried for years to read Superman or Action Comics. Invariable I was bored.

[holtom2000]

If we can vote on top thread of the week, I vote for this. Great post

[Jubilee]

I massively disagree and I think this is why I never really liked Waids stuff. He seems very pedestrian as a writer to me.

[Jubilee]

As a matter of fact the more I think about it, the more silly that quote becomes. Wow superhero comic writers can suck sometimes.

[ReturnoftheMack]

Isn't Irredeemable as cynical as it gets? Superman goes insane, becomes a murderer and kills millions of people. I like Waid and Irredeemable, but this makes no sense to me.

[Jubilee]

The idea that comics shouldn't by cynical or grim and gritty is completely alien to me.

Rape, destruction, mutilation is a plot device. They've been used across multiple genres, for multiple reasons numerous times. To completely say "superhero comics should be fun" and remove these elements completely is something that limits them, and keeps them being a niche product. I can't believe someone who thinks like that has managed to get himself so high up in the comics industry.

[ReturnoftheMack]

The idea that comics shouldn't by cynical or grim and gritty is completely alien to me.

Rape, destruction, mutilation is a plot device. They've been used across multiple genres, for multiple reasons numerous times. To completely say "superhero comics should be fun" and remove these elements completely is something that limits them, and keeps them being a niche product. I can't believe someone who thinks like that has managed to get himself so high up in the comics industry.

Agreed. There's a place for all type of storytelling in comics.

I can enjoy something like Slott's Thing series which was uplifting and fun, but still love Watchmen.