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[Jubilee]

If we're taking away runs which involve rape, multiple killings or an overly cynical view, you're erasing runs like:

Morrisons New X-men,
Bendis' Daredevil
X-statix
and Bru's Cap

from existence. And IMO they're four of the best ten runs in the last few decades.

[Punchy]

Some superheroes shouldn't be cynical, but a lot of others should, not all characters are the same, Waid shouldn't have spoken in such general terms, characters like Wolverine, Punisher and Batman thrive on dark, cynical stories, whereas Superman should be more hopeful.

[Amoebas]

As has been pointed out, ESF and I are usually in sync - but not so much here.

I'm an old timer in comic enjoyment. I love that feeling that comics should be fun. That heroes should be inspirational and villains should be vile. If we were talking about Westerns it'd be white hats vs black. Shane, Matt Dillon, Davy Crocket, etc would always win and the bad guys lose.

Boring.

Give me a Rooster Cogburn or William Munny instead. Conflicted heroes fighting to do the right thing are far more interesting.

To me comics are escapism. Escaping reality for 22 odd pages at a time to a new world. DC & Marvel provide that and since the 60's they've given me worlds where being a hero isn't easy. I don't find that being cynical at all.

As for Superman, you quoted Waid - I'll quote (paraphrase) Busiek from JLAvengers, where Superman apologizes to Cap and states that he fears he does too much on his world while Cap laments that he probably doesn't too enough. How perfect is that?

Are they characters that go overboard - sure. Superman isn't one of them.

[chap22]

Isn't Irredeemable as cynical as it gets? Superman goes insane, becomes a murderer and kills millions of people. I like Waid and Irredeemable, but this makes no sense to me.

Just wait until the last issue.

[chap22]

The idea that comics shouldn't by cynical or grim and gritty is completely alien to me.

Rape, destruction, mutilation is a plot device. They've been used across multiple genres, for multiple reasons numerous times. To completely say "superhero comics should be fun" and remove these elements completely is something that limits them, and keeps them being a niche product. I can't believe someone who thinks like that has managed to get himself so high up in the comics industry.

I think you're talking about something totally different than what Waid is talking about. You mention plot devices and misquote him as saying "all superhero stories should be fun" but that's not what he's saying. He's saying he doesn't think superheroes, the characters should be written cynically. And I imagine Waid doesn't think that about all characters...he knows the difference in a superhero and an anti-hero, that's evident by his writing. And he's not saying that the stories heroes appear in should never be to your personal taste, i.e. "grim and gritty" with the rapey and the stabby...the guy wrote Kingdom Come where Lois Lane is murdered. He wrote Empire and Ireedeemable, where the bad guys win through mass murder. What he's saying is that even in those stories, heroes are HEROES, and creators should respect them as such as they write them. Don't wink wink nudge nudge the reader by hinting at how ridiculous a moral code is. Don't treat it as if it's the only job you could get and you don't "believe" in the goodness of the good guy. By all means challenge them, and give them tremendous obstacles to overcome, but never forget that at their core, superheroes are about hope, and belief, and wonder.

[ElijahSnowFan]

The idea that comics shouldn't by cynical or grim and gritty is completely alien to me.

Rape, destruction, mutilation is a plot device. They've been used across multiple genres, for multiple reasons numerous times. To completely say "superhero comics should be fun" and remove these elements completely is something that limits them, and keeps them being a niche product. I can't believe someone who thinks like that has managed to get himself so high up in the comics industry.

Rape, mutilation and massive destruction are WEAK plot devices, again, for mainstream comic books.

Those are every bit as limiting a method of storytelling as anything you'll find. Because they leave you NO OUT WHATSOEVER.

Once you go to that toolbox, you have nowhere left to go with characters. There's nothing left to do with them that makes sense. Even certain murders close the door to anything being done with a character, resulting in degrading storylines that are far worse than you seem to want to admit.

Frank Miller's Daredevil run was great. Bullseye vs. Elektra; Elektra dies. Bulleye vs. Daredevil; Bullseye paralyzed. And if it had ended there for two of those three characters, it was easily one of the single-best achievements a comics creator could have had.

But...Miller himself brought back Elektra. Bullseye got rehabilitation, metal bone implants, got himself back in the mix.

So it becomes a trope: In Daredevil books, his girlfriend gets effed up. Bad guy dies; the Hand resurrects them. Bullseye kills another of his former girlfriends. Elektra flounders aimlessly, because there's nothing left for the character to do. Why? "Morally ambiguous assassin who everybody knows isn't as good as Bullseye" leaves you nowhere else to go, that's why.

Until finally, there's nothing left. You wind up with Shadowland.

Grim-and-gritty without consequence takes you nowhere but ridiculous status quo.

I think, in Daredevil's history, he's had at least two girlfriends killed, one driven insane, one commit suicide, and one be a recurring supervillain.

See, that's just dumb. You have so clearly focused on making the character "grim," instead you've made his life "ridiculous."

Daredevil should fight crime, and he should have wins and losses. But the losses have to make sense, unless you're willing to take the character off the board. He's not bulletproof. He's not invulnerable. So by definition, you have already made allowances for him to be relatable in a comic book.

When you have a Dark Ninja Tower erected in New York, guess what you've done? You've acknowledged that the character has been broken beyond repair, because of the stories where you kept pushing past the boundary of what makes any kind of sense.

Hey, look! Wilson Fisk is the Kingpin of Crime again! For the 17th time!

[ElijahSnowFan]

I think you're talking about something totally different than what Waid is talking about. You mention plot devices and misquote him as saying "all superhero stories should be fun" but that's not what he's saying. He's saying he doesn't think superheroes, the characters should be written cynically. And I imagine Waid doesn't think that about all characters...he knows the difference in a superhero and an anti-hero, that's evident by his writing. And he's not saying that the stories heroes appear in should never be to your personal taste, i.e. "grim and gritty" with the rapey and the stabby...the guy wrote Kingdom Come where Lois Lane is murdered. He wrote Empire and Ireedeemable, where the bad guys win through mass murder. What he's saying is that even in those stories, heroes are HEROES, and creators should respect them as such as they write them. Don't wink wink nudge nudge the reader by hinting at how ridiculous a moral code is. Don't treat it as if it's the only job you could get and you don't "believe" in the goodness of the good guy. By all means challenge them, and give them tremendous obstacles to overcome, but never forget that at their core, superheroes are about hope, and belief, and wonder.

Exactly. This isn't hard to figure out. I like consequences for actions as much as anybody.

Again, if you have the bad guys win, then fine. But if you have that action in a shared universe, nothing happens in a vacuum! There are consequences!

You can't have Black Adam commit genocide and ATTACK THE WORLD, then just wander around and, whoops, nobody can find him! Silly superheroes! He only killed a few of you, though!

[ReturnoftheMack]

The Death of Phoenix, one of the greatest stories ever and pre-grim and gritty, had a hero go crazy, destroy a planet killing billions and then committing suicide. That's pretty cynical.

But what you're saying about the repetition of these storylines doesn't mean there's "NO OUT WHATSOEVER." It just means that talentless writers copy successful runs. Daredevil's girlfriends didn't need to keep dying. He didn't need to have his life destroyed by Kingpin every Thursday, but that's not because writers are too cynical as Waid says. It's because they suck. I'll give you an example. Bendis' run wasn't the first time Matt's identity had been exposed. But guess what? He made it work. He had the second most successful run on Daredevil. It's not about cynicism. It's about talent.

[ElijahSnowFan]

The Death of Phoenix, one of the greatest stories ever and pre-grim and gritty, had a hero go crazy, destroy a planet killing billions and then committing suicide. That's pretty cynical.

But what you're saying about the repetition of these storylines doesn't mean there's "NO OUT WHATSOEVER." It just means that talentless writers copy successful runs. Daredevil's girlfriends didn't need to keep dying. He didn't need to have his life destroyed by Kingpin every Thursday, but that's not because writers are too cynical as Waid says. It's because they suck. I'll give you an example. Bendis' run wasn't the first time Matt's identity had been exposed. But guess what? He made it work. He had the second most successful run on Daredevil. It's not about cynicism. It's about talent.

The Dark Phoenix Saga isn't a good example of cynicism by the creator. Chris Claremont was absolutely going to give Jean Grey a pass on killing that planetary system until Jim Shooter stepped in and made her death mandatory for the act. If anything, it does prove my point that having the Phoenix draped around her neck has done nothing but limit Jean Grey's ability to ever have good stories told about her.

Cynical talent still takes you nowhere sustainable. At the end of Bendis' run, Murdock's in prison, Iron Fist is masquerading as Daredevil, and as Brubaker takes over, the first thing he does is take Daredevil out of New York, out of the country.

Because there was nothing left to do with the character even then. There was nothing left.

Daredevil is so simple. Lawyer realizes that they system allows some criminals to thrive. Uses his fighting ability and enhanced senses to fight for those who can't fight for themselves.

There will be wins and losses. Sure there will. But at some point, you either have to be willing to take Matt Murdock off the board, or resist that urge to kill Girlfriend No. 11.

[ReturnoftheMack]

The Dark Phoenix Saga isn't a good example of cynicism by the creator. Chris Claremont was absolutely going to give Jean Grey a pass on killing that planetary system until Jim Shooter stepped in and made her death mandatory for the act. If anything, it does prove my point that having the Phoenix draped around her neck has done nothing but limit Jean Grey's ability to ever have good stories told about her.

Cynical talent still takes you nowhere sustainable. At the end of Bendis' run, Murdock's in prison, Iron Fist is masquerading as Daredevil, and as Brubaker takes over, the first thing he does is take Daredevil out of New York, out of the country.

Because there was nothing left to do with the character even then. There was nothing left.

Daredevil is so simple. Lawyer realizes that they system allows some criminals to thrive. Uses his fighting ability and enhanced senses to fight for those who can't fight for themselves.

There will be wins and losses. Sure there will. But at some point, you either have to be willing to take Matt Murdock off the board, or resist that urge to kill Girlfriend No. 11.

Jim Shooter did the right thing overruling them.

Taking Daredevil out of the country made sense and Brubaker's run was also excellent. Then Diggle fucked it up. Now Waid fixed it.

So what's the problem? Looks to me like I was right. It's about talent. You can still take DD in hundreds of different directions. There's still a lot you can do with him. There's many outs. Brubaker essentially wrapped up Bendis' story in a very good story. Shadowland really didn't have much to do with it.

[Victorian Squid]

Those antiquated notions of superheroes and comic books are anachronistic and no longer captivate the mass market because they anachronistic, and sales of superhero comics have been dropping since the 1950s. The only people who think that's what superheroes have to be are people like Waid with a built-in nostalgia for those less cynical times and comics. But that's all it is--nostalgia for the past. It's the same as dreaming of the newsstand market coming back.

[ElijahSnowFan]

Jim Shooter did the right thing overruling them.

Taking Daredevil out of the country made sense and Brubaker's run was also excellent. Then Diggle fucked it up. Now Waid fixed it.

So what's the problem? Looks to me like I was right. It's about talent. You can still take DD in hundreds of different directions. There's still a lot you can do with him. There's many outs. Brubaker essentially wrapped up Bendis' story in a very good story. Shadowland really didn't have much to do with it.

This stuff doesn't exist in a vacuum. Brubaker fell into the same trap as any other hack: He's the one who had Milla driven insane by Mr. Fear, in a foolproof plan to destroy a character who has already been destroyed multiple times.

Come on, man. Nothing groundbreaking has happened in Daredevil since 1985. Nothing. You might find a stretch of stories that are entertaining, but they all loop back to Frank Miller destroying the character in his first run and "Born Again."

[ElijahSnowFan]

Those antiquated notions of superheroes and comic books are anachronistic and no longer captivate the mass market because they anachronistic, and sales of superhero comics have been dropping since the 1950s. The only people who think that's what superheroes have to be are people like Waid with a built-in nostalgia for those less cynical times and comics. But that's all it is--nostalgia for the past. It's the same as dreaming of the newsstand market coming back.

Or maybe there are adults who stopped buying comics for their children because they became a little too real, a little too violent? I absolutely know people who have been disturbed to find out that rape has been depicted in a comic book.

[ReturnoftheMack]

This stuff doesn't exist in a vacuum. Brubaker fell into the same trap as any other hack: He's the one who had Milla driven insane by Mr. Fear, in a foolproof plan to destroy a character who has already been destroyed multiple times.

That was one small part of his run.

Come on, man. Nothing groundbreaking has happened in Daredevil since 1985. Nothing. You might find a stretch of stories that are entertaining, but they all loop back to Frank Miller destroying the character in his first run and "Born Again."

Are you a Herald alias or do you not read comics? Nothing has happened in Daredevil since 1985? Sigh.

For the sake of argument, let's say you are right. Why does groundbreaking have to equal good. Bendis' run. Bru's run. Waid's run. All awesome. Some people like chap like Kesel's run or Nocenti's run.

It doesn't need to be groundbreaking. It needs to be good.

[chap22]

The Death of Phoenix, one of the greatest stories ever and pre-grim and gritty, had a hero go crazy, destroy a planet killing billions and then committing suicide. That's pretty cynical.

no, it's not cynical at all. You're missing Waid's point just as badly as Twigg is.

Jean and the X-Men were treated respectfully, and Claremont and Byrne never treated them as anything but heroes. The X-Men were faced with an entity who as you said, destroyed solar systems, but they never gave up and fought against it because they believed in their friend. In the end, though her absolute power corrupted her, Jean Grey overcame that, and regained control long enough to do what's right and sacrifice herself to save her team, her world, and god knows what else. That act is the ultimate NON-cynical view of what a superhero is...someone who is willing to fight unbeatable godlike foes and lay down their own life to protect and save others. Hell just read the Watcher's speech at the end of 137 and TRY to find an ounce of cynicism in that. Can't be done.

That's what Waid's talking about