The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[dairydead]

I did, already. Kids being promoted to higher grades with an inability to read is a much bigger crisis than kids not getting zeroes for not doing busy work.

you don't think the two are related?

but i was referencing the apparent attack out of nowehere. I assumed it was directed at me.

[Doc Jon]

I did, already. Kids being promoted to higher grades with an inability to read is a much bigger crisis than kids not getting zeroes for not doing busy work.

You seem to separate the two, but why do you assume they're getting 0's for busy work? WHat if it's more than busy work? It certainly seems so in this case since this policy wasn't even public knowledge.

[Doc Jon]

No, it was directed at Jon. We have a lovely history together and it's usually best if we just avoid one another - which I'm sure he agrees with.

If you don't think you can handle a grown up discussion about the educational system, then that's fine. I don't think I've said anything that's out of line.

[Doc Jon]

Teachers were told to no longer give zeros. Instead an uncompleted test or assignment would be marked with a comment.

"It's what they call social promotion," Dorval said "It's a way of pushing kids through even though they're not actually doing the work. It's a way of getting them through, getting their credits and of course making the staff look very good."

Teachers were instructed to use their "informed professional judgement" at the end of the year when handing out marks, he said.

"Some would, in fact, lower the mark on what wasn't done," Dorval said. "Other teachers would just let the mark go, so there was a real inconsistency on how (the policy) was being applied."

Dorval believes the policy leaves students with the impression they don't need to be accountable for their actions, he said. 'Student should be accountable'

"That's against what I've been doing my whole career because I believe the student should be accountable for what they're doing."

Dorval said he always gave uncompleted work what is called "reluctant zeros," where his students were given a number of opportunities to make up the assignment and have the zero replaced with a mark.

"Most of my students did that," he said. "By the end of the year, I hardly had any zeros at all."

He does recall however, one student who had only completed six of 15 items.

That's the issue at hand.

"Social promotion"

[syxxpakk]

you don't think the two are related?

but i was referencing the apparent attack out of nowehere. I assumed it was directed at me.

It depends on what you mean by it. I think often times kids don't do their work in high school because they can't read, so in that way they're related. But I don't think kids in elementary school aren't doing their work, but I could be wrong on that. I think in elementary school kids can fail all manners of reading assessments which is =/= not doing work, and still be promoted a grade. That, to me, is a much bigger problem. At the school I taught at previously, the avg age of the 9th grader there was 16 and that was because they got to a point middle school where they were just pushed out regardless of how they performed. That's a bigger issue.

And sorry for the snarkiness.

[The Shadow]

Detroit schools are like that. A friend of mine teaches college english classes at a Community College right outside of Detroit, and she says that most kids coming out of the city literally cannot read at a middle school level. They also know nothing about english, as ebonics is considered acceptable in certain schools. Its pretty weird.

On the flip side, she said the best students she gets, bar none, are the inner city kids that actually try.

The BEST compliment I had all year: A mother of a former student subs at my high school once in a while. I taught her son English for his grade 12 (senior) year. I drilled writing, comprehension, grammar, spelling, etc. into their heads. Her son started university in the fall.

She came up to me in January after the first semester was over and said "Mike didn't want me to tell you this because he knew you'd say 'I told you so'... but his first year English prof called him and one other student (out of a class of 75 I found out later) and told them they were the only two that passed all essays and writing tests." (As a side Mike got a 90% on one essay, 95% on another and only had one essay that was 75% or lower! Most were in the 80% range.)

I said that was great!

She then said Mike was asked by his prof where he learned how to write and his reply was "I had a wicked tough ELA teacher in high school. I listed to him and learned." Apparently the teacher joked and threatened to fail him if he said 'wicked tough' again! LOL

[The Shadow]

And "busy" work is all in how you see it. Sometimes repetition is the best way to learn.

My English students HATE the first half of my class because it's assignment after assignment. But by the end they know their grammar, sentence structure, proper punctuation and writing skills.

Repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition!!!!!

[The Shadow]

I don't think a kid should fail a course if out 10 classworks assignments, he did 3 but then aces the tests.

I agree there.

However what happens when the kid does none and misses the test? Sure you can look into deeper issues but that doesn't mean they should get the pass in English. How can you justify moving them on when they haven't shown they know the material and are ill prepared for the next grade?

I work in a very small high school on a First Nation Indian reserve where families without social problems are the abnormality. I get it... I see it... and I help them through it as much as I can. But at the end of the day it's my professional reputation and integrity on the line and I won't compromise it.

I have a similar problem with the fact that I had to fail a student who missed 5 days of class, which is the max they can fail, but had a 96 in my class. That student obviously knew what he needed to know.

I had a young girl who had a baby at 17 and she came back to finish school at 19 and she missed waaaaaaaaay more than the allotted number of days but I still passed her. She would parent all day, email me and get the work, do it better than most of her classmates and show up when she could. I wouldn't fail someone like that either.

But the kid you know can do it but says to you "I'm, only here to see my friends and check out the girls" and does nothing all year won't get the pass from me.

[syxxpakk]

That's why I said there's no easy answer to the dilemma. So many variables on either side.

[achilles]

Given that each student comes to school with different cultural baggage that predetermines how he or she is able to do in a system that favors whites with a European heritage, it just keeps coming down to the undeniable fact that we need more affirmative action to make up for this cultural bias, and we need more social promotion to avoid the damage to self-esteem this system can cause among its victims.

The science is proven here, there's no room for debate. Schools need more money, more affirmative action and more social promotions---as well as classes intended to enhance student's self-esteem. Math programs for example need to move beyond the Euro-centric view of a "right" or a "wrong" answer, and start embracing the model that promotes self-esteem as the most desired outcome of a student's attempting to solve a problem.

Teachers for example should end the toxic practice of calling students up to a blackboard and putting them on the spot, potentially embarrassing them if they can't "solve" the problem according to the Western fashion.

[Doc Jon]

Given that each student comes to school with different cultural baggage that predetermines how he or she is able to do in a system that favors whites with a European heritage, it just keeps coming down to the undeniable fact that we need more affirmative action to make up for this cultural bias, and we need more social promotion to avoid the damage to self-esteem this system can cause among its victims.

The science is proven here, there's no room for debate. Schools need more money, more affirmative action and more social promotions---as well as classes intended to enhance student's self-esteem. Math programs for example need to move beyond the Euro-centric view of a "right" or a "wrong" answer, and start embracing the model that promotes self-esteem as the most desired outcome of a student's attempting to solve a problem.

Teachers for example should end the toxic practice of calling students up to a blackboard and putting them on the spot, potentially embarrassing them if they can't "solve" the problem according to the Western fashion.

Trying too hard, thy name is achilles...

[achilles]

Trying too hard, thy name is achilles...

Well, I'm not a student, I'm free to try. Plus, I plan on fitting in most of my points on just a couple of posts. Which you need to do against a ravening horde of right wingers like you guys, who only have the kid's worst interests at mind.

[The Shadow]

we need more social promotion to avoid the damage to self-esteem

I ask again, would you want the guy doing your kidney transplant who was socially promoted but has good self esteem or the doctor who got a 90% in kidney transplant class? I know which one I woudl prefer.

Or as a business owner would you want the kid who was socially promoted but can't do math as your accountant?

There's something to be said for helping a kid out... but in the real world you're doing more harm than good.

[Cat-Scratch]

Achilles in this thread =

[achilles]

I ask again, would you want the guy doing your kidney transplant who was socially promoted but has good self esteem or the doctor who got a 90% in kidney transplant class? I know which one I woudl prefer.

Or as a business owner would you want the kid who was socially promoted but can't do math as your accountant?

There's something to be said for helping a kid out... but in the real world you're doing more harm than good.

Absolutely. The societal good done by the kid's having high self-esteem is just not measurable! There might be a few rough patches along the way, but that's to be expected.