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OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby IvCNuB4 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:18 am

Victorian Squid wrote:In a DC/Marvel cross-over "all your favorite Marvel characters would catch contextually-transmitted diseases and Steph infections."

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby Zechs » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:22 am

Punchy wrote:She's toxic because she's unnecessary. DC already has a Batgirl and a Batwoman, they don't need more.

And once again, her fanbase is not a female fanbase, most of her fans seem to be men.

You're actually wrong Punchy. There's a lot of female fans of Steph. I'd wager Cassandra has more male fans than female. Then again.. on a female prone website, Cassandra won most kick ass female DC character. And that was LAST year.

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:32 am

The concept that she's "redundant" is stupid. It's a smokescreen.

15 Bat-books are redundant. Four robins are redundant. Two Superman boos are redundant. Etc etc etc.

I was in the camp that thought this whole thing was ridiculous, but the more I hear about it, it's clear that DC really does think these characters are "toxic." And the "why" is not too hard to figure out - it's the fans.

It's one part not wanting to be associated with 40-year-olds who are obsessed with a teen girl characters, and part not wanting to deal with those same people bitching when they do something they don't like about it.

That's what calling her "toxic" means. Toxic doesn't mean redundant. It means she poisons the comics she's in and the comics around her, and the company and the industry as a whole.
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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby sdsichero » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:44 am

LOLtron wrote:At the end of the day, I find it baffling that DC has labeled certain characters as toxic


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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby Zechs » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:09 pm

sdsichero wrote:
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Poison?

I AM POISON!!!

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby misac » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:10 pm

nietoperz wrote:The biggest problem is not even the non-use of characters, it's the offhand and even mocking way in which DC treats fans' questions and concerns. They do it with Wally West as well. In the end, if fans are attached to characters and DC go out of their way to alienate these fans - not by benching the object of their enthusiasm, but by being outright rude and dismissive - they're being really short sighted.


I don’t think any of this would have happened if they hadn’t been dicks about it.
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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby Timbales » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:13 pm

Zechs wrote:
Poison?

I AM POISON!!!


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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby sdsichero » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:25 pm

Timbales wrote:
never trust a big butt and a smile


So you've met Zechs?
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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby Stephen Day » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:25 pm

misac wrote:
I don’t think any of this would have happened if they hadn’t been dicks about it.


Yeah, in the end this shouldn't have been the big deal it has become. It seems like DC has managed to find every worst possible way in which they could deal with it.
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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby Juan Cena » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:30 pm

misac wrote:
I don’t think any of this would have happened if they hadn’t been dicks about it.


True.

DC's contempt for its fans has done plenty of damage to the company's reputation.
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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby dairydead » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:52 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:The concept that she's "redundant" is stupid. It's a smokescreen.

15 Bat-books are redundant. Four robins are redundant. Two Superman boos are redundant. Etc etc etc.

I was in the camp that thought this whole thing was ridiculous, but the more I hear about it, it's clear that DC really does think these characters are "toxic." And the "why" is not too hard to figure out - it's the fans.

It's one part not wanting to be associated with 40-year-olds who are obsessed with a teen girl characters, and part not wanting to deal with those same people bitching when they do something they don't like about it.

That's what calling her "toxic" means. Toxic doesn't mean redundant. It means she poisons the comics she's in and the comics around her, and the company and the industry as a whole.


This.

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby Zechs » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:04 pm

dairydead wrote:
This.


And who created the mess to begin with? DC itself via War Games and OYL, not the fans.
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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby FotoCub » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:10 pm

This is a very thoughtful article and a lot more reasoned than some debate I've seen on this topic. I do have to take point on your analysis of the sales however. Stephanie Brown's Batgirl book ended its run with a little over 22K issues at #24, not #12, which is where each of the other books mentioned are now. There's no guarantee these books are going to make it to 24, and I would argue - short of a miracle - they won't. We've already seen an art change on Batwing and a writer change on Stormwatch in an attempt to generate more positive sales. DC too showed a great deal of commitment to Stephanie's book by putting one of their superstar artists on the title, Dustin Nguyen, and sales still slumped. The sad thing is (and this is not unique to the New 52) if a book is short on sales, it won't get another shot right away, particularly for a more obscure character. Stephanie may have a vocal fan base, but DC has no way of knowing how many people will buy her book EXCEPT from that last sales number. And they can't LAUNCH a book at 22K. Batwing, Stormwatch, all of these launched way higher than where they fell now. Double or more in some cases.AND how is DC (strictly from a sales standpoint) to know how many of those 22K readers were buying "Batgirl" or "Stephanie Brown AS Batgirl"? What if a quarter of them were simply Bat fans and wouldn't buy a SPOILER series? Now you're down to a 17K launch. Can you see how this could be a problem?My hope is that Stephanie does come back, either in a supporting role or even in a title of her own, but when she does, her fans MUST be ready to support the book in HUGE numbers. If it doesn't launch at over 50K right away, it's not going to last long, statistically speaking. And if she's had TWO tries at the rodeo and not sold well, EEK. There will be plenty of reason to call her "toxic" then. :-(

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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby Zechs » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:21 pm

FotoCub wrote:This is a very thoughtful article and a lot more reasoned than some debate I've seen on this topic. I do have to take point on your analysis of the sales however. Stephanie Brown's Batgirl book ended its run with a little over 22K issues at #24, not #12, which is where each of the other books mentioned are now. There's no guarantee these books are going to make it to 24, and I would argue - short of a miracle - they won't. We've already seen an art change on Batwing and a writer change on Stormwatch in an attempt to generate more positive sales. DC too showed a great deal of commitment to Stephanie's book by putting one of their superstar artists on the title, Dustin Nguyen, and sales still slumped. The sad thing is (and this is not unique to the New 52) if a book is short on sales, it won't get another shot right away, particularly for a more obscure character. Stephanie may have a vocal fan base, but DC has no way of knowing how many people will buy her book EXCEPT from that last sales number. And they can't LAUNCH a book at 22K. Batwing, Stormwatch, all of these launched way higher than where they fell now. Double or more in some cases.AND how is DC (strictly from a sales standpoint) to know how many of those 22K readers were buying "Batgirl" or "Stephanie Brown AS Batgirl"? What if a quarter of them were simply Bat fans and wouldn't buy a SPOILER series? Now you're down to a 17K launch. Can you see how this could be a problem?My hope is that Stephanie does come back, either in a supporting role or even in a title of her own, but when she does, her fans MUST be ready to support the book in HUGE numbers. If it doesn't launch at over 50K right away, it's not going to last long, statistically speaking. And if she's had TWO tries at the rodeo and not sold well, EEK. There will be plenty of reason to call her "toxic" then. :-(


I agree. If the characters are to return let it be a team book or as Dustin Nguyen so much suggested:

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Add some appearances from Tim Drake and you know people will buy this book unless the creative team is sabotaged like the Batgirl vol. 2 mini with Adam Beechen on it.
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Re: OP/ED: The Toxicity of Stephanie Brown

Postby The Old Doctor » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:22 pm

She's got the comic book "clap"!
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols."
"Oh, the pointing again! They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?"
"Are you capable of speaking without flapping your hands about?"
""Timey" what? "Timey wimey"?"

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