The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

by **Victorian Squid** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:25 pm

Zechs wrote:
I agree. If the characters are to return let it be a team book or as Dustin Nguyen so much suggested:

Add some appearances from Tim Drake and you know people will buy this book unless the creative team is sabotaged like the Batgirl vol. 2 mini with Adam Beechen on it.

And reboot Wally West as the world's fastest midget?

He looks like he's going to punch someone in the knees. :lol:

by **Zechs** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:27 pm

McDarkseid wrote:
And reboot Wally West as the world's fastest midget?

Weird choice.

That's not Wally, that Colin from Nguyen/Dini's Streets of Gotham run. I was off and on that run but from what I could recall. Scarecrow injected a ton of venom into the kid.

by **Victorian Squid** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:29 pm

No one knows who that is! :lol:

by **Zechs** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:31 pm

McDarkseid wrote:No one knows who that is!

I know but it's a pet character of Nguyen's. :smt102

I was just making the simple point that a team book could be done.

by **David Bird** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:14 pm

Punchy wrote:She's toxic because she's unnecessary. DC already has a Batgirl and a Batwoman, they don't need more.

And once again, her fanbase is not a female fanbase, most of her fans seem to be men.

This isn't remotely true. I can only assume you're basing your assessment on forums like this one, which seem to do little to attract or keep female fans. Steph and Cass have a lot of female fans. As a father raising a daughter up to be a comics fan, its a big plus in her favour.

I liked the article, the only thing I would argue with is the downplaying of sexism. I know its a topic many people [read: guys] are often uncomfortable with, but Didio and company seem to be going out of their way to alienate female readers. A non-Gotham example would be Starfire. Thanks to the Teen Titan cartoons she too has a lot of female fans, particularly young ones, but the skankover she got in the new 52 did not please many women.

I also don't agree that the idea she is toxic stems from the fans' devotion to her. Comic fans get angry about so many things, there's no reason to treat that aspect as any different. What is different is that this is the second time DC has done this to her. She was given the role of Robin, which gave her a validation that fit well with the character's over all development. Then she was tortured to death. Turns out that was the whole reason for making her Robin. To torture her to death. It was at that point she became a rallying point for women angered at the treatment of female characters. Then DC decided she wasn't dead after all. They even gave her her own title, albeit at the expense of another fan favorite. It seems there can be any number of Robins, but female fans get only one hero at a time. It was a good run. As anyone who bothered to actually read the comic would know, she wasn't just another Batgirl. Miller kept the personality of the character intact. (She is actually more like a female Peter Parker than any other character.) Then they got rid of her a second time. For no reason at all.

I also don't agree with the necessity of a 50,000 sales threshold. I can't believe they ever thought many of the titles they still print would sell 50,000. But fans don't need her to have her own title. They would be perfectly happy with her on team title, ideally with Cain. Actually, I think that would be the first choice of most of them.

One last point. While she was both Robin and Batgirl, she has her own persona. She's the Spoiler. Just as most fans don't need to see her headlining a title, most would happy with her being herself--the Spoiler.

by **Cat-Scratch** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:29 pm

I think it's stupidity to throw away any character.

by **draco x** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:12 pm

The Nacireman wrote:
True.

DC's contempt for its fans has done plenty of damage to the company's reputation.

Really? And here I thought it was shitty marketing and incompetent business decisions all along.

by **draco x** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:16 pm

In all fairness, Steph and Cass didn't get it as bad as Jean Paul Valley who got a shitty sendoff when his book ended, then got replaced with an even shittier stand-in that nobody acknowledges till this day and then made a brief appearance as an undead zombie for 3 panels. I could go on a rant about JPV but I already covered this before but I do think Steph and Cass aren't alone in getting the short-end of DC's biased crap-stick.

by **FotoCub** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:49 am

I don't think of 50K as a maintainable theshold, just a launch threshold. Books that launch lower than that tend to end up circling the high teens within a year these days. Any book that settles into a 30K range would be very safe in this market, unless by comparison to its franchise a book is doing poorly, such as with Justice League International.

by **Punchy** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:09 am

David Bird wrote:
This isn't remotely true. I can only assume you're basing your assessment on forums like this one, which seem to do little to attract or keep female fans. Steph and Cass have a lot of female fans.

Prove it.

by **habitual** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:22 am

Punchy wrote:
Prove it.

Jude has promised me he's saving a pair of his big boy pants for you.

You don't have the stones to question David Bird.

Hab

by **Zechs** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:31 am

draco x wrote:In all fairness, Steph and Cass didn't get it as bad as Jean Paul Valley who got a shitty sendoff when his book ended, then got replaced with an even shittier stand-in that nobody acknowledges till this day and then made a brief appearance as an undead zombie for 3 panels. I could go on a rant about JPV but I already covered this before but I do think Steph and Cass aren't alone in getting the short-end of DC's biased crap-stick.

True, but the character had an opening which DC just flat out closed on. A shame really.

by **Zechs** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:33 am

Punchy wrote:
Prove it.

Scans Daily and DC Women Kicking Ass. All run by women. Guess who are in the top tags listed in one of them? If you answered Stephanie and Cassandra YOU ARE CORRECT SIR!

by **David Bird** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:14 am

Punchy wrote:
Prove it.

Having seen you give your opinion for years, I skeptical that any amount of proof would get you to change your mind, but the two sites Zechs mentioned would be a good place to start. There are lots of sites and many, many tumblr accounts that are made by and for female comics readers. It isn't hard to find them if you bother to look.

by **draco x** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:16 am

Zechs wrote:
True, but the character had an opening which DC just flat out closed on. A shame really.

Exactly my point. The way they handled JPV, Steph, Cass, Wally and even Connor Hawke was a blatant middle finger to the fans. The reasons they have for excluding or even ignoring their existences reeks of personal prejudices and nothing else.